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Scrolling through the comments, Imran was arrested for accepting bribes worth billions while in office. Some comments say it's true, the other it's false charg

Scrolling through the comments, Imran was arrested for accepting bribes worth billions while in office. Some comments say it's true, the other it's false charges. Does anybody have a credible source for what's really going on? The point of propaganda is not to make people believe it. It is to foster cynicism so that we don’t know what to believe and come to believe that nothing is true, no facts are reliable, and the world is simply a battlefield for partisan ideas. ~ Hannah Arendt

screye 3y ago
In South Asian politics, bribes are a way of life. No one goes to prison for bribes. They go to prison, and then it's decided which bribe will be used an excuse to put them there. Imran is currently ushering in an 'Arab Spring' style movement in Pakistan. I use that phrase with all the positive and negative connotations that go with it. The army wants to maintain dictatorial-ish control and want to do to Imran what they've done to every Pakistani leader before this. (prison /exile/assassination) But he is too popular, now riding a fundamentalist wave that he himself can't control. So the army is having to resort to increasingly contrived methods to keep Imran under control. I'll answer the question you presumably want to ask : "who are the baddies?". Sadly, that's a question that only the future can answer.
- closetnerd 3y ago
  > So the army is having to resort to increasingly contrived methods to keep Imran under control. They tried to assassinate him and got very close to it.
- airocker 3y ago
  Please dont resort to South Asia here, Pakistan is a very unique country that has the history of killing almost all the PMs it has ever had.
  - yipbub 3y ago
    Yes, but bribes are a fact of life in India as well. (Indian here)
    - airocker 3y ago
      You have 55 countries between rank 85 and rank 140 that are better match to Pakistan than India: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 , why this privilege to only us Indians? I read the above comment as "See we are as good as Indians, this is just a blip".
      - boomboomsubban 3y ago
        On a scale of 100, Pakistan got a 27 and India 40. Definitely similar. Particularly as Pakistan's perceived corruption score has been falling, likely partially due to Khan's highlighting of the issue.
        airocker 3y ago
        Fun fact: In terms of rank , the difference between USA and India is similar to India and Pakistan. Maybe the commentor could have chosen USA for comparison. Funny thing is perception, these comments just harm India's perception for readers here. Why drag us here?
        boomboomsubban 3y ago
        Fun fact, there's a 13 point gap between rank 1 and rank 10. So those two also are apparently incomparable. Why are you comparing rank? They give the index a score for comparisons sake. If I were working to set up a business in one of the two countries, maybe a thirteen point gap in perceived corruption would be important to me. But for casual conversation they're both very corrupt.
        airocker 3y ago
        I am not here to dissect the point difference. I am just saying why drag us here and not the other 55?
kumarvvr 3y ago
The army propped up Imran Khan. Unfortunately for them, IK was too ambitious and rebellious. He started using the army's traditional rhetoric against them. However, due to economic turmoil, IK became very popular right under the nose of the army. This causes more difficulty in removing him for the army, than what they had faced with others. Now, the army and IK are at loggerheads with each other. Essentially a good chunk of the population with a cult like following for IK, against the army which is a major political and economical force in its own right, but not power given by the people. An immovable object vs. an unstoppable force. Looks like IK will be the one who will be destroyed. All other narratives (corruption, bribes, etc) are for plebs like us to debate. In the grand scheme of things, those don't matter to Pakistan, because the struggle is not over corruption, but power politics.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Down the grapevine (this is the internet so take with a massive grain of salt - I trust my source but you shouldn't trust me or any other anonymous commentator) I heard from Hill adjacent friends that there was some tussle between the upper level Army generals and upper level PTI members surrounding normalizing relations with India following the 2018-19 crisis. Higher ups in the Army wanted to normalize relations as a legacy making project, but certain political actors felt it would be electoral suicide for them if that happened.
  - sidm83 3y ago
    Not really a secret. This went viral on twitter 1-2 weeks ago leading to several news reports.
6stringronin 3y ago
Its amazing that the brother of the current PM Nawaz Sharif was indicted on literally that charge in the Panama Papers. Now they are accusing the other side of it and fabricating a case because Imran Khan.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
closetnerd 3y ago
Very much false. They arrested him, and many others, because he's demanding the constitutionally mandated elections be held. He'd been going to court for cases like terrorism because of "blasphemy". He's a major threat to the very corrupt army and dynastic parties. All other parties have joined in a coalition with the army. The only opposition is Imran Khan. Sharifs: The head of one has been in self exile in London while he made his brother prime minister. His daughter and nephews run the party. He was found to have been hiding money when the Panama papers came out. Zardaris: Was prime minister when Osama bin Laden was found hiding in Pakistan. Known as mr 10%. His niece and disgraced generals accused him of killing Bhuttos. He's made his son the heir to the party. Of the top 10 richest folks in Pakistan are Sharif & Zardari. Imran Khan is not. Instead earned most of his money through cricket when he led Pakistan to the only World Cup victory. Then he'd opened the best hospitals in Pakistan that treat most patients (all of them desperately poor) for free. Then founded/created an entirely new party that after decades came to power. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/28/pakistani-court-disqualifies-pm-nawaz-sharif-from-office https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/28/pakistani-cour... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/16/pakistan-zardari-amnesty-corruption-charges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/16/pakistan-zarda... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/pakistan-court-zardari-corruption-case https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/pakistan-court... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistanis_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistanis_by_net_wort... [5] https://twitter.com/voaurdu/status/1655992378098843709 https://twitter.com/voaurdu/status/1655992378098843709 [6] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/pakistan-punjab-elections-to-go-ahead-as-court-confirms-ruling https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/pakistan-punja...
- spaceman_2020 3y ago
  This is pretty much spot on. Imran has been called a zealot and a fool, but almost no one who knows him has called him corrupt.
StanislavPetrov 3y ago
>Does anybody have a credible source for what's really going on? Everyone will have their own take, here is mine: What it boils down to is that Imran Kahn is by far the most popular politician in Pakistan. He was Prime Minister of Pakistan in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. He refused to take sides in the conflict, despite pressure by the US. In March of 2022, Pakistan's Ambassador to the US, Asad Majeed Khan (no relation), sent a letter to the PTI government from his post in Washington DC saying that the US government was threatening to withdraw financial aid to Pakistan (at least $32 billion over the last 20 years) if they didn't get rid of Khan (denied by the US government). Days later Khan was removed as Prime Minister by a "no confidence" vote. Since then, corruption charges have been filed again Khan and thousands of his supporters have been surrounding Khan's home and repelling attempts by the government and the army to arrest him (until now). Now the situation is extremely volatile as the extremely unpopular government, seen as deeply corrupt by the vast majority of Pakistanis (corruption is endemic there), has arrested the most popular politician in the country on charges of corruption.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Ukraine took Pak side on Kashmir and sold them tanks.
ryzvonusef 3y ago
Paki here, here to give the sad truth: while he most definitely profited from this (and other) deals, the fact that this deal was passed through when he was in office without any issue then, and the fact that the other party (the property tycoon) is NOT also been indicted means that there is most definitely a political manoeuvre. The same happened with the previous PM, Nawaz Sharif. Most people remember his name with the Panama papers, but the funny thing is, that was NOT the reason he was disqualified from office; because that would have implicated other people, and that's a no-no. Instead he was indicted another, frankly stupid, reason... and used that as a basis to effectively neuter him by disqualifying from holding any public. This is the new tactic our benevolent overlords have chosen. Instead of assassinating someone, or jailing them for life... they just make you ineligible to hold public office and then cut their strings. I guess the same will happen to this guy also. Meanwhile inflation is at an all time high, and I am worried about staples, but govt is too busy with random shit to focus on nation building. Like imagine, while elon musk burnt 44 billion dollars for teh lulz, here we are, a nation of 230 million, begging for a single billion dollars just to avoid bankruptcy; we won't even be able to do anything useful with it, we will be begging again in a few months again. I can't live here, I can't escape from here, it's like some weird Dante's hell type shit. I just envy my deceased father for having outlived this nonsense in 2020.
- Eupolemos 3y ago
  I am sorry. Than you for the explanation.
- closetnerd 3y ago
  I'm seriously confused how people can remotely equate them. Nawaz sharif is worth 100s of millions. He's driving around in Bentleys in London for 4 years while his brother is PM of Pakistan. I really want to know what did IK profit in the current allegations? He's creating a university where students learn for free like his decades old hospitals where people get free healthcare.
  - ryzvonusef 3y ago
    I am not exactly sure what I can say that will convince you. ---- Not everything is about money, some times it's about power. Just because one is more corrupt doesn't mean the other is not corrupt. Just because one does good thing doesn't mean that everything they do is good. Just because a certain thing is good doesn't mean it's not also a white-washing attempt. ----- I really don't want to get into a he-said she-said, because frankly I damn care. Also, before I get accused of favoritism, let me just say beforehand that me ( and my family) were voters of the party Mr. Khan belongs to (PTI) during the 2013 and 2018 elections. This is not a good guy / bad guy kinda deal. This is a political struggle between two factions, and the less emotionally attached you are, the better you can judge it.
nojonestownpls 3y ago
Imran was openly insistent about releasing Pakistan from being under USA's thumb, about the nation needing make its decisions for itself. Just a couple days before his ousting, he made comments about how some countries treat Pakistan like their slave, and that is not acceptable any more. Right away after reading that news, one could have predicted how things would go.

screye 3y ago

In South Asian politics, bribes are a way of life. No one goes to prison for bribes. They go to prison, and then it's decided which bribe will be used an excuse to put them there. Imran is currently ushering in an 'Arab Spring' style movement in Pakistan. I use that phrase with all the positive and negative connotations that go with it. The army wants to maintain dictatorial-ish control and want to do to Imran what they've done to every Pakistani leader before this. (prison /exile/assassination) But he is too popular, now riding a fundamentalist wave that he himself can't control. So the army is having to resort to increasingly contrived methods to keep Imran under control. I'll answer the question you presumably want to ask : "who are the baddies?". Sadly, that's a question that only the future can answer.

closetnerd 3y ago
> So the army is having to resort to increasingly contrived methods to keep Imran under control. They tried to assassinate him and got very close to it.
airocker 3y ago
Please dont resort to South Asia here, Pakistan is a very unique country that has the history of killing almost all the PMs it has ever had.
- yipbub 3y ago
  Yes, but bribes are a fact of life in India as well. (Indian here)
  - airocker 3y ago
    You have 55 countries between rank 85 and rank 140 that are better match to Pakistan than India: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022 , why this privilege to only us Indians? I read the above comment as "See we are as good as Indians, this is just a blip".
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      On a scale of 100, Pakistan got a 27 and India 40. Definitely similar. Particularly as Pakistan's perceived corruption score has been falling, likely partially due to Khan's highlighting of the issue.
      - airocker 3y ago
        Fun fact: In terms of rank , the difference between USA and India is similar to India and Pakistan. Maybe the commentor could have chosen USA for comparison. Funny thing is perception, these comments just harm India's perception for readers here. Why drag us here?
        boomboomsubban 3y ago
        Fun fact, there's a 13 point gap between rank 1 and rank 10. So those two also are apparently incomparable. Why are you comparing rank? They give the index a score for comparisons sake. If I were working to set up a business in one of the two countries, maybe a thirteen point gap in perceived corruption would be important to me. But for casual conversation they're both very corrupt.
        airocker 3y ago
        I am not here to dissect the point difference. I am just saying why drag us here and not the other 55?

kumarvvr 3y ago

The army propped up Imran Khan. Unfortunately for them, IK was too ambitious and rebellious. He started using the army's traditional rhetoric against them. However, due to economic turmoil, IK became very popular right under the nose of the army. This causes more difficulty in removing him for the army, than what they had faced with others. Now, the army and IK are at loggerheads with each other. Essentially a good chunk of the population with a cult like following for IK, against the army which is a major political and economical force in its own right, but not power given by the people. An immovable object vs. an unstoppable force. Looks like IK will be the one who will be destroyed. All other narratives (corruption, bribes, etc) are for plebs like us to debate. In the grand scheme of things, those don't matter to Pakistan, because the struggle is not over corruption, but power politics.

alephnerd 3y ago
Down the grapevine (this is the internet so take with a massive grain of salt - I trust my source but you shouldn't trust me or any other anonymous commentator) I heard from Hill adjacent friends that there was some tussle between the upper level Army generals and upper level PTI members surrounding normalizing relations with India following the 2018-19 crisis. Higher ups in the Army wanted to normalize relations as a legacy making project, but certain political actors felt it would be electoral suicide for them if that happened.
- sidm83 3y ago
  Not really a secret. This went viral on twitter 1-2 weeks ago leading to several news reports.

6stringronin 3y ago

Its amazing that the brother of the current PM Nawaz Sharif was indicted on literally that charge in the Panama Papers. Now they are accusing the other side of it and fabricating a case because Imran Khan.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

closetnerd 3y ago

Very much false. They arrested him, and many others, because he's demanding the constitutionally mandated elections be held. He'd been going to court for cases like terrorism because of "blasphemy". He's a major threat to the very corrupt army and dynastic parties. All other parties have joined in a coalition with the army. The only opposition is Imran Khan. Sharifs: The head of one has been in self exile in London while he made his brother prime minister. His daughter and nephews run the party. He was found to have been hiding money when the Panama papers came out. Zardaris: Was prime minister when Osama bin Laden was found hiding in Pakistan. Known as mr 10%. His niece and disgraced generals accused him of killing Bhuttos. He's made his son the heir to the party. Of the top 10 richest folks in Pakistan are Sharif & Zardari. Imran Khan is not. Instead earned most of his money through cricket when he led Pakistan to the only World Cup victory. Then he'd opened the best hospitals in Pakistan that treat most patients (all of them desperately poor) for free. Then founded/created an entirely new party that after decades came to power. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/28/pakistani-court-disqualifies-pm-nawaz-sharif-from-office https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/28/pakistani-cour... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/16/pakistan-zardari-amnesty-corruption-charges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/16/pakistan-zarda... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/pakistan-court-zardari-corruption-case https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/pakistan-court... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistanis_by_net_worth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistanis_by_net_wort... [5] https://twitter.com/voaurdu/status/1655992378098843709 https://twitter.com/voaurdu/status/1655992378098843709 [6] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/pakistan-punjab-elections-to-go-ahead-as-court-confirms-ruling https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/pakistan-punja...

spaceman_2020 3y ago
This is pretty much spot on. Imran has been called a zealot and a fool, but almost no one who knows him has called him corrupt.

StanislavPetrov 3y ago

>Does anybody have a credible source for what's really going on? Everyone will have their own take, here is mine: What it boils down to is that Imran Kahn is by far the most popular politician in Pakistan. He was Prime Minister of Pakistan in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. He refused to take sides in the conflict, despite pressure by the US. In March of 2022, Pakistan's Ambassador to the US, Asad Majeed Khan (no relation), sent a letter to the PTI government from his post in Washington DC saying that the US government was threatening to withdraw financial aid to Pakistan (at least $32 billion over the last 20 years) if they didn't get rid of Khan (denied by the US government). Days later Khan was removed as Prime Minister by a "no confidence" vote. Since then, corruption charges have been filed again Khan and thousands of his supporters have been surrounding Khan's home and repelling attempts by the government and the army to arrest him (until now). Now the situation is extremely volatile as the extremely unpopular government, seen as deeply corrupt by the vast majority of Pakistanis (corruption is endemic there), has arrested the most popular politician in the country on charges of corruption.

selimthegrim 3y ago
Ukraine took Pak side on Kashmir and sold them tanks.

ryzvonusef 3y ago

Paki here, here to give the sad truth: while he most definitely profited from this (and other) deals, the fact that this deal was passed through when he was in office without any issue then, and the fact that the other party (the property tycoon) is NOT also been indicted means that there is most definitely a political manoeuvre. The same happened with the previous PM, Nawaz Sharif. Most people remember his name with the Panama papers, but the funny thing is, that was NOT the reason he was disqualified from office; because that would have implicated other people, and that's a no-no. Instead he was indicted another, frankly stupid, reason... and used that as a basis to effectively neuter him by disqualifying from holding any public. This is the new tactic our benevolent overlords have chosen. Instead of assassinating someone, or jailing them for life... they just make you ineligible to hold public office and then cut their strings. I guess the same will happen to this guy also. Meanwhile inflation is at an all time high, and I am worried about staples, but govt is too busy with random shit to focus on nation building. Like imagine, while elon musk burnt 44 billion dollars for teh lulz, here we are, a nation of 230 million, begging for a single billion dollars just to avoid bankruptcy; we won't even be able to do anything useful with it, we will be begging again in a few months again. I can't live here, I can't escape from here, it's like some weird Dante's hell type shit. I just envy my deceased father for having outlived this nonsense in 2020.

Eupolemos 3y ago
I am sorry. Than you for the explanation.
closetnerd 3y ago
I'm seriously confused how people can remotely equate them. Nawaz sharif is worth 100s of millions. He's driving around in Bentleys in London for 4 years while his brother is PM of Pakistan. I really want to know what did IK profit in the current allegations? He's creating a university where students learn for free like his decades old hospitals where people get free healthcare.
- ryzvonusef 3y ago
  I am not exactly sure what I can say that will convince you. ---- Not everything is about money, some times it's about power. Just because one is more corrupt doesn't mean the other is not corrupt. Just because one does good thing doesn't mean that everything they do is good. Just because a certain thing is good doesn't mean it's not also a white-washing attempt. ----- I really don't want to get into a he-said she-said, because frankly I damn care. Also, before I get accused of favoritism, let me just say beforehand that me ( and my family) were voters of the party Mr. Khan belongs to (PTI) during the 2013 and 2018 elections. This is not a good guy / bad guy kinda deal. This is a political struggle between two factions, and the less emotionally attached you are, the better you can judge it.

nojonestownpls 3y ago

Imran was openly insistent about releasing Pakistan from being under USA's thumb, about the nation needing make its decisions for itself. Just a couple days before his ousting, he made comments about how some countries treat Pakistan like their slave, and that is not acceptable any more. Right away after reading that news, one could have predicted how things would go.