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Now I'd like to be able to legally run MacOS on a virtual machine or on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud or something. I know you can rent a bare metal Apple Mini o

Now I'd like to be able to legally run MacOS on a virtual machine or on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud or something. I know you can rent a bare metal Apple Mini or something, but Apple's terms of service make this all basically illegal to use like any other VM. That means if I want to develop an app for iOS (beyond just what you can do in Swift Playgrounds), I can't just boot up a VM or AWS instance, I have to either buy an actual Mac Mini (cheapest option) or rent one.

qmarchi 3y ago
Not illegal, but a breach of contract.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Breach of contract is illegal, even though its not (in and of itself) criminal.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    I can't find anything online to support that. Everything I find says that to be illegal, something must be against the law, and that a contract is not law, so the word "illegal" doesn't apply to breach of contract because it's private. There is a difference between illegality and criminality however -- e.g. breaking the speed limit is illegal but it doesn't reach criminal, as one source uses as an example.
    - jerry80 3y ago
      Actually, speeding is criminal in many states.
      - Osiris 3y ago
        Are traffic infractions criminal? Violating some traffic laws can be a misdemeanor or felony while most are infractions. I don’t know if infraction is considered “criminal”.
        wildzzz 3y ago
        If all you get from the cop is a summons, it's not a crime but more akin to a civil infraction.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Are traffic infractions criminal? This is often actually an area where toubwill find conflicting info; public info provided by the California state courts says yes, they are, in California [0], while you will find other sources, including law offices, saying they aren’t. [1] The issue is largely that they are structured as crimes in state law, but the manner of punishment available does not make them “crimes” within the purview of federal Constitutional protections, or federal statutory consequences for conviction of state crimes (e.g., in the immigration system.) [0] https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/CIP_AboutCriminalCases.pdf https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/CIP_AboutCriminalCases.p... [1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/infractions/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/infractions/
      - zamnos 3y ago
        Almost all states have drinking and driving (DUI/DWI) as misdemeanors and it's a misdemeanor federally.
      - dexterdog 3y ago
        Name two
        jerry80 3y ago
        Since you're too busy to do basic research to answer your own curiosity, of course I'll let you know that speeding is a misdemeanor in Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia, Wyoming. I'm sure I'm missing a few.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Everything I find says that to be illegal, something must be against the law. A breach of contract is against, and has remedies provided under, the law of contracts.. > A contract is not law No, but the law of contracts is law.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        But this isn't a question of logic, it's a question of definition. And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". Do you have an authoritative source that defines it otherwise?
        nobody9999 3y ago
        >And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". IIUC, breaking a contract is a civil tort[0]: A tort is an act or omission that gives rise to injury or harm to another and amounts to a civil wrong for which courts impose liability. In the context of torts, "injury" describes the invasion of any legal right, whereas "harm" describes a loss or detriment in fact that an individual suffers.1 And torts (again, IIUC) are not the breaking of a legal code, and as such cannot be illegal, as they break no laws. Something illegal is dealt with in a criminal court (yes, there are administrative courts in various places that handle minor infractions, but those are governed under the relevant legal code and are adjudicated as such. Civil torts are not contained within any legal code, and as such cannot be illegal. That said, there are some harms that may also rise to the level of criminality (e.g., fraud), which may also have a civil tort associated with them. But breach of contract by itself is just breaking the rules[1] agreed upon by the parties to a contract. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/tort https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/tort [1] https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/rules-and-laws/628637 https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/rules-and-laws/6286...
        ElFitz 3y ago
        > Civil torts are not contained within any legal code, and as such cannot be illegal. Doesn’t that depend on the country? Would it also be true in civil law countries? Or only in common law countries?
    - darreninthenet 3y ago
      That depends on the country... speeding in the UK, for example, absolutely is a criminal offence. In fact, in the UK, apart from a tiny number of civil matters used in criminal law, breaking the law (ie doing something illegal) is always a criminal offence.
      - judge2020 3y ago
        dragonwriter and others here are both right. In terms of language, the terms are the same, in that you are a criminal if you violate the law. However, in many countries and regions "criminal" can be a way to discern that certain crimes come with specific punishments, like jail time or personal fines. For example, in the US there's criminal and civil cases. You can't be incarcerated for losing a civil suit, unless you don't pay whatever judgement the court discerns (which is considered criminal contempt of court). In the US the difference also comes into play in terms of who can bring certain charges against you. If you were to sue someone, you can't sue them for assault and battery or homicide, because these are considered criminal charges and only the District Attorney / the government can bring these charges against someone. In this case, there are typically parallel civil remedies you can sue for, such as "wrongful death" and "emotional distress" which is strictly to recuperate financial loss.
  - freetanga 3y ago
    I think it’s not always the case, if the contract is abusive or illegal. We had a situation where we chose to breach since IBM contract was abusive and not really enforceable. They never complained, despite threats.
- simondotau 3y ago
  In what way is it a breach of contract? It is using someone else's intellectual property without a license. Morally it is no different to using a cracked version of Photoshop, or playing a cracked version of Grand Theft Auto. Quite simply it's breach of copyright. To be clear, I'm not here to be a scold or a narc. Copyright is overly abused by large corporations. My ability to shed a tear for breaching the copyright of billion dollar corporations is limited. If you want to run macOS inside KVM on your own personal rig, all power to you. I'll cheer you on from the sidelines. But if you're using this software as part of regular business operations, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's morally justifiable. And it's ridiculous to pretend that anyone should have the legal right to Apple's intellectual property without a license — save, apparently, for security researchers.
musicale 3y ago
> Now I'd like to be able to legally run MacOS on a virtual machine or on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud or something Azure Pipelines supports macOS 11 and 12. GitHub Actions supports macOS 11, 12, and 13 beta.
- Sytten 3y ago
  They cost a shit ton though because they have to run on mac mini AFAIK. It would most likely be way cheaper if there were to run on commodity hardware.
  - sixothree 3y ago
    Pretty sure you also pay for them when they are shut down too.
    - UberMouse 3y ago
      Yes for renting an instance from AWS. Minimum lease time is 24H iirc. But that's not the case for Github Actions (and so I assume Azure Pipelines). You pay per minute, it's just 10x the cost of an Ubuntu instance.
  - jim180 3y ago
    I have never paid for Azure Pipelines, but they do offer just Intel :(
cloudking 3y ago
Try cancelling a subscription from the app store in your browser.. oh wait you can't do it on the web you have to install iTunes.

qmarchi 3y ago

Not illegal, but a breach of contract.

dragonwriter 3y ago
Breach of contract is illegal, even though its not (in and of itself) criminal.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  I can't find anything online to support that. Everything I find says that to be illegal, something must be against the law, and that a contract is not law, so the word "illegal" doesn't apply to breach of contract because it's private. There is a difference between illegality and criminality however -- e.g. breaking the speed limit is illegal but it doesn't reach criminal, as one source uses as an example.
  - jerry80 3y ago
    Actually, speeding is criminal in many states.
    - Osiris 3y ago
      Are traffic infractions criminal? Violating some traffic laws can be a misdemeanor or felony while most are infractions. I don’t know if infraction is considered “criminal”.
      - wildzzz 3y ago
        If all you get from the cop is a summons, it's not a crime but more akin to a civil infraction.
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Are traffic infractions criminal? This is often actually an area where toubwill find conflicting info; public info provided by the California state courts says yes, they are, in California [0], while you will find other sources, including law offices, saying they aren’t. [1] The issue is largely that they are structured as crimes in state law, but the manner of punishment available does not make them “crimes” within the purview of federal Constitutional protections, or federal statutory consequences for conviction of state crimes (e.g., in the immigration system.) [0] https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/CIP_AboutCriminalCases.pdf https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/CIP_AboutCriminalCases.p... [1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/infractions/ https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/infractions/
    - zamnos 3y ago
      Almost all states have drinking and driving (DUI/DWI) as misdemeanors and it's a misdemeanor federally.
    - dexterdog 3y ago
      Name two
      - jerry80 3y ago
        Since you're too busy to do basic research to answer your own curiosity, of course I'll let you know that speeding is a misdemeanor in Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia, Wyoming. I'm sure I'm missing a few.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Everything I find says that to be illegal, something must be against the law. A breach of contract is against, and has remedies provided under, the law of contracts.. > A contract is not law No, but the law of contracts is law.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      But this isn't a question of logic, it's a question of definition. And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". Do you have an authoritative source that defines it otherwise?
      - nobody9999 3y ago
        >And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". IIUC, breaking a contract is a civil tort[0]: A tort is an act or omission that gives rise to injury or harm to another and amounts to a civil wrong for which courts impose liability. In the context of torts, "injury" describes the invasion of any legal right, whereas "harm" describes a loss or detriment in fact that an individual suffers.1 And torts (again, IIUC) are not the breaking of a legal code, and as such cannot be illegal, as they break no laws. Something illegal is dealt with in a criminal court (yes, there are administrative courts in various places that handle minor infractions, but those are governed under the relevant legal code and are adjudicated as such. Civil torts are not contained within any legal code, and as such cannot be illegal. That said, there are some harms that may also rise to the level of criminality (e.g., fraud), which may also have a civil tort associated with them. But breach of contract by itself is just breaking the rules[1] agreed upon by the parties to a contract. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/tort https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/tort [1] https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/rules-and-laws/628637 https://kids.britannica.com/kids/article/rules-and-laws/6286...
        ElFitz 3y ago
        > Civil torts are not contained within any legal code, and as such cannot be illegal. Doesn’t that depend on the country? Would it also be true in civil law countries? Or only in common law countries?
  - darreninthenet 3y ago
    That depends on the country... speeding in the UK, for example, absolutely is a criminal offence. In fact, in the UK, apart from a tiny number of civil matters used in criminal law, breaking the law (ie doing something illegal) is always a criminal offence.
    - judge2020 3y ago
      dragonwriter and others here are both right. In terms of language, the terms are the same, in that you are a criminal if you violate the law. However, in many countries and regions "criminal" can be a way to discern that certain crimes come with specific punishments, like jail time or personal fines. For example, in the US there's criminal and civil cases. You can't be incarcerated for losing a civil suit, unless you don't pay whatever judgement the court discerns (which is considered criminal contempt of court). In the US the difference also comes into play in terms of who can bring certain charges against you. If you were to sue someone, you can't sue them for assault and battery or homicide, because these are considered criminal charges and only the District Attorney / the government can bring these charges against someone. In this case, there are typically parallel civil remedies you can sue for, such as "wrongful death" and "emotional distress" which is strictly to recuperate financial loss.
- freetanga 3y ago
  I think it’s not always the case, if the contract is abusive or illegal. We had a situation where we chose to breach since IBM contract was abusive and not really enforceable. They never complained, despite threats.
simondotau 3y ago
In what way is it a breach of contract? It is using someone else's intellectual property without a license. Morally it is no different to using a cracked version of Photoshop, or playing a cracked version of Grand Theft Auto. Quite simply it's breach of copyright. To be clear, I'm not here to be a scold or a narc. Copyright is overly abused by large corporations. My ability to shed a tear for breaching the copyright of billion dollar corporations is limited. If you want to run macOS inside KVM on your own personal rig, all power to you. I'll cheer you on from the sidelines. But if you're using this software as part of regular business operations, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's morally justifiable. And it's ridiculous to pretend that anyone should have the legal right to Apple's intellectual property without a license — save, apparently, for security researchers.

musicale 3y ago

> Now I'd like to be able to legally run MacOS on a virtual machine or on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud or something Azure Pipelines supports macOS 11 and 12. GitHub Actions supports macOS 11, 12, and 13 beta.

Sytten 3y ago
They cost a shit ton though because they have to run on mac mini AFAIK. It would most likely be way cheaper if there were to run on commodity hardware.
- sixothree 3y ago
  Pretty sure you also pay for them when they are shut down too.
  - UberMouse 3y ago
    Yes for renting an instance from AWS. Minimum lease time is 24H iirc. But that's not the case for Github Actions (and so I assume Azure Pipelines). You pay per minute, it's just 10x the cost of an Ubuntu instance.
- jim180 3y ago
  I have never paid for Azure Pipelines, but they do offer just Intel :(

cloudking 3y ago

Try cancelling a subscription from the app store in your browser.. oh wait you can't do it on the web you have to install iTunes.