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Fault? The situation with apple producers you just described looks like a win-win situation both for consumers and immigrants. The only ones losing are New Zeal

Fault? The situation with apple producers you just described looks like a win-win situation both for consumers and immigrants. The only ones losing are New Zealand workers, but from all invoked groups, they're the only citizens who could theoretically vote out these politicians.

crtified 3y ago
I acknowledge that win/loss is arguable. It invokes ethical cans of worms that I'm reluctant to open here. In theory, the dominant demographic at HN are from affluent countries, so the maxim that there are endless folk from poorer countries who'd be willing to come and do our work for a lot less - could apply to most of us, in similar fashion. Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. And dependent upon other factors such as opportunity cost, the question 'is there something economically better we could be doing instead'? I suppose my point could be construed as highlighting the significant factors of power and inertia in regulatory systems, as pertaining to environmental and economic setups. Regarding your point about Voting Out - it assumes that the major political parties differ in their stance on this one matter. If both/all are subject to the same lobbying, then whichever is elected will see the status quo remain.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  I had a friend who used to FIFO to/of one of the offshore NZ fishery Islands cos they wouldn't get out of bed for less than $300 an hour and he could make enough in 3 months to have the other 9 months off. Cost of living there is extreme, $4.50 for a bottle of milk on the mainland but $12 there. The islands economy is export based.
- golergka 3y ago
  > Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. Win for whom? I'm a developer from not an affluent country, working remotely for an american company (although for an american level of pay, my employer is quite awesome). So it's definetly a win for me.
okillbite 3y ago
And those workers don't want to do those jobs, for that $, anyway. A friend of mine with a farm in Quebec, Canada says even if you can find folks to do the work and pay them well, they often aren't reliable. Better all round to use temporary workers
- crtified 3y ago
  Only a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. In the same way that only a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused (e.g.) mathematical workout every day. The difference is that the former tends to come with a sub-cultural attitude of "people who can't/won't are Lazy", which is unfortunate and misguided, in the very same manner that a "people who can't/won't do maths all day are Stupid" view would be.
  - golergka 3y ago
    Only a few generations ago, an overwhelming majority of humans were farmers, having 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. Do you think we lost natural ability for it in such a short timespan?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      Why do you think there was ever a natural ability for it? If that's the only option available, you suck it up and do the work.
      - golergka 3y ago
        But if you're unable to do it, you die of hunger anyway.

crtified 3y ago

I acknowledge that win/loss is arguable. It invokes ethical cans of worms that I'm reluctant to open here. In theory, the dominant demographic at HN are from affluent countries, so the maxim that there are endless folk from poorer countries who'd be willing to come and do our work for a lot less - could apply to most of us, in similar fashion. Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. And dependent upon other factors such as opportunity cost, the question 'is there something economically better we could be doing instead'? I suppose my point could be construed as highlighting the significant factors of power and inertia in regulatory systems, as pertaining to environmental and economic setups. Regarding your point about Voting Out - it assumes that the major political parties differ in their stance on this one matter. If both/all are subject to the same lobbying, then whichever is elected will see the status quo remain.

mikrotikker 3y ago
I had a friend who used to FIFO to/of one of the offshore NZ fishery Islands cos they wouldn't get out of bed for less than $300 an hour and he could make enough in 3 months to have the other 9 months off. Cost of living there is extreme, $4.50 for a bottle of milk on the mainland but $12 there. The islands economy is export based.
golergka 3y ago
> Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. Win for whom? I'm a developer from not an affluent country, working remotely for an american company (although for an american level of pay, my employer is quite awesome). So it's definetly a win for me.

okillbite 3y ago

And those workers don't want to do those jobs, for that $, anyway. A friend of mine with a farm in Quebec, Canada says even if you can find folks to do the work and pay them well, they often aren't reliable. Better all round to use temporary workers

crtified 3y ago
Only a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. In the same way that only a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused (e.g.) mathematical workout every day. The difference is that the former tends to come with a sub-cultural attitude of "people who can't/won't are Lazy", which is unfortunate and misguided, in the very same manner that a "people who can't/won't do maths all day are Stupid" view would be.
- golergka 3y ago
  Only a few generations ago, an overwhelming majority of humans were farmers, having 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. Do you think we lost natural ability for it in such a short timespan?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Why do you think there was ever a natural ability for it? If that's the only option available, you suck it up and do the work.
    - golergka 3y ago
      But if you're unable to do it, you die of hunger anyway.