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Low wage industries struggle in high wage countries. Globalization displaces natural local supply and demand outcomes. The above two factors result in some ve
by crtified 3y ago
Low wage industries struggle in high wage countries.
Globalization displaces natural local supply and demand outcomes.
The above two factors result in some very complex status quos.
For example, take the country of New Zealand, whose significant apple growing industry is largely for export purposes - ostensibly, sending good fresh highly-valued NZ apples to other countries, where they'll fetch max $.
Problem: apple workers are minimum wage jobs. Over recent decades, the minimum wage in NZ has risen by a great deal more than the price of apples has. Profitability slumped.
The powerful industry, rather than cede ground or change crops, instead loudly complained and politically lobbied to have special conditions put in place for their industry: since 2007, they can 'temporarily import' hundreds of foreign labourers from the islands of Tonga and similar - a special workforce of large muscled young men for whom any NZ wage is a fortune back home, and to whom the powerful orchardists and their cronies are like little gods.
The natural local market forces that-would-be are being manipulated for commercial purposes, with significant and complex environmental, economic, and cultural side effects.
Whose fault is it? What should we do instead?
- golergka 3y agoFault? The situation with apple producers you just described looks like a win-win situation both for consumers and immigrants. The only ones losing are New Zealand workers, but from all invoked groups, they're the only citizens who could theoretically vote out these politicians.
- crtified 3y agoI acknowledge that win/loss is arguable. It invokes ethical cans of worms that I'm reluctant to open here. In theory, the dominant demographic at HN are from affluent countries, so the maxim that there are endless folk from poorer countries who'd be willing to come and do our work for a lot less - could apply to most of us, in similar fashion. Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. And dependent upon other factors such as opportunity cost, the question 'is there something economically better we could be doing instead'? I suppose my point could be construed as highlighting the significant factors of power and inertia in regulatory systems, as pertaining to environmental and economic setups. Regarding your point about Voting Out - it assumes that the major political parties differ in their stance on this one matter. If both/all are subject to the same lobbying, then whichever is elected will see the status quo remain.
- mikrotikker 3y agoI had a friend who used to FIFO to/of one of the offshore NZ fishery Islands cos they wouldn't get out of bed for less than $300 an hour and he could make enough in 3 months to have the other 9 months off. Cost of living there is extreme, $4.50 for a bottle of milk on the mainland but $12 there. The islands economy is export based.
- golergka 3y ago> Would we call that 'a win'? Highly subjective, obviously. Win for whom? I'm a developer from not an affluent country, working remotely for an american company (although for an american level of pay, my employer is quite awesome). So it's definetly a win for me.
- okillbite 3y agoAnd those workers don't want to do those jobs, for that $, anyway. A friend of mine with a farm in Quebec, Canada says even if you can find folks to do the work and pay them well, they often aren't reliable. Better all round to use temporary workers
- crtified 3y agoOnly a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. In the same way that only a minority of people have an aptitude for work consisting of an 8-hour hard-focused (e.g.) mathematical workout every day. The difference is that the former tends to come with a sub-cultural attitude of "people who can't/won't are Lazy", which is unfortunate and misguided, in the very same manner that a "people who can't/won't do maths all day are Stupid" view would be.
- golergka 3y agoOnly a few generations ago, an overwhelming majority of humans were farmers, having 8-hour hard-focused physical workout every day. Do you think we lost natural ability for it in such a short timespan?
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y agoWhy do you think there was ever a natural ability for it? If that's the only option available, you suck it up and do the work.
- golergka 3y agoBut if you're unable to do it, you die of hunger anyway.
- polishdude20 3y agoIt seems like it's "ride the wave with us or get left behind" kind of thing.
- Etrnl_President 3y agoIn my experience, individual small farms tend to be "displaced" moreso by government, than by broad concepts like Globalization.
- zokier 3y ago> for whom any NZ wage is a fortune back home This is the problem to solve, and something I believe is becoming solved gradually even if very slowly; developing nations have been developing. But if we manage to eradicate this idea of "high wage countries", or at least reduce it so that the imbalance is not order(s) of magnitude, then that will alleviate many of the negative side-effects of globalization.
- ed25519FUUU 3y agoWe can’t eliminate it on a city by city, or state by state basis. How would that inequality ever be eliminated on a country by country basis?
- ajmurmann 3y agoYou see it being eliminated right there in the post. Globalization is moving money to the people who are more needy by giving them the chance to earn a relative fortune by harvesting apples in NZ. It's a fabulous success! We see this all over the place. Many manufacturing jobs moved from China to cheaper places where people are more needy because so many Chinese were lifted out of poverty. The best way out of poverty is allowing globalization to continue doing this and have policies that focus on creating abundance rather than seeing the economy as a zero-sum game. At some point automation will hit a point where we must have something like UBI, but it seems like we aren't there yet.
- mikrotikker 3y agoBut the effects globalization has had on the environment has been disastrous
- stcroixx 3y agoExactly like big tech in the US and their H1B carve out.
- judge2020 3y agoThis is why farming subsidies exist - it's advantageous for both national security and economic security to have at least some crops grown within a nation's borders. Not so great if the nation specifically has a lower minimum wage for their agriculture workers, though.
- concordDance 3y agoGet rid of minimum wage and replace it with UBI. Avoids the market distorting effects of minimum wage without leaving people destitute.
- jkepler 3y agoNo! Creating more money doesn't create wealth. We need to cap the money supply, let working people save in money that isn't being stolen from them by design (central banks target rates of inflation), and trust that with the deflationary effects of technology, peoples' savings will gradually increase in purchasing power.
- jkepler 3y agoLow-wage industries wouldn't necessarily be a problem of the currency's purchasing power was rising rather than falling. But in most "developed" economies, we're institutional used theft via central banks targeting inflation, rather than recognizing that technological advancements ought to bring about gradual price deflation. We've accepted for far too long the lie that low inflation (i.e. theft at a slow enough rate that working people hopefully won't notice) is necessary for economic growth. That's not true, but it introduces all sorts of systemic injustice into our economic systems.
- kwere 3y agoThats looks more like dynamics of seasonal jobs in developed economies. People get stable jobs that provide income all year around and avoid hustling for low value odd jobs. The only ways to fill those positions are employing special class workers: unenployed welfare recipients, prisoners, students, foreign unskilled workers, etc... . Foreign unskilled workers usually are the easiest to get