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Like anything else free speech has to have some caveats, being an absolutist paints you into a corner and doesn’t allow you to see the full range of issues. Fro

by kmos17 3y ago

Like anything else free speech has to have some caveats, being an absolutist paints you into a corner and doesn’t allow you to see the full range of issues. From the old shouting fire in a crowded theater to inciting genocide, words can absolutely have real world consequences, and can be manipulated by outside forces that individuals are not equipped to fight against.

babelthuap 3y ago
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- fzeroracer 3y ago
  The platform does. This isn't hard. You can go check out Gab or whatever right now and see what happens when a platform prides itself on 'free speech'. A platform turning into a toxic wasteland because it doesn't want to ban or kick people off for being nasty means only the people who thrive in the muck will join.
  - babelthuap 3y ago
    Getting feelings hurt is not a crime. Harming people physically or financially is a crime. GAB isn't harming anyone. I don't like GAB but end of the day just because I don't like something banning them entirely is a form of evil. They have a right to exist. Most don't like them. They will never be a massive force of reason. Let it go because it's not going anywhere.
    - fzeroracer 3y ago
      What does this have anything to do with what I mentioned? I pointed to Gab as an example of why not curating your site is bad and what it leads to. This is why social media sites ban highly inflammatory content. You said blacklisting from any source is abhorrent. Then I recommend you post on Gab until you realize why curation is necessary.
theturtletalks 3y ago
I used to be a big believer of “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Then my friend told me that logic falls apart when we start to tolerate intolerance. Now I don’t know what to think.
- version_five 3y ago
  Why can't you tolerate intolerance. Between being the bigger person and not trying to go tit for tat with people whose views you despise, and the whole idea that sunlight is the best disinfectant, it's by far the least bad policy.
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    'Sunlight is the best disinfectant' requires other users to do the disinfecting for you. It's saying that you have no strong convictions against users that end up harassing other users off your platform.
  - Master_Odin 3y ago
    It's the paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), where by showing tolerance to the intolerant, the intolerant will eventually keep pushing and eventually destroy the tolerant.
    - version_five 3y ago
      Seems a lot like what's happening with the modern left, honestly. But I think there's a way around that, especially on platforms, it's just to separate opinion from personal attack. HN does that pretty well, though not perfectly. But in society people have gotten away with promoting this pretend idea that ideas can be the same as violence (or variation on that) and want to pretend that some general claim someone makes is the same as a personal attack. If we can have platforms that are mature enough not to get caught in that, I think it's possible for different views to be aired and repugnant ones to be called out.

by kmos17 3y ago

babelthuap 3y ago

[dead]

fzeroracer 3y ago
The platform does. This isn't hard. You can go check out Gab or whatever right now and see what happens when a platform prides itself on 'free speech'. A platform turning into a toxic wasteland because it doesn't want to ban or kick people off for being nasty means only the people who thrive in the muck will join.
- babelthuap 3y ago
  Getting feelings hurt is not a crime. Harming people physically or financially is a crime. GAB isn't harming anyone. I don't like GAB but end of the day just because I don't like something banning them entirely is a form of evil. They have a right to exist. Most don't like them. They will never be a massive force of reason. Let it go because it's not going anywhere.
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    What does this have anything to do with what I mentioned? I pointed to Gab as an example of why not curating your site is bad and what it leads to. This is why social media sites ban highly inflammatory content. You said blacklisting from any source is abhorrent. Then I recommend you post on Gab until you realize why curation is necessary.

theturtletalks 3y ago

I used to be a big believer of “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Then my friend told me that logic falls apart when we start to tolerate intolerance. Now I don’t know what to think.

version_five 3y ago
Why can't you tolerate intolerance. Between being the bigger person and not trying to go tit for tat with people whose views you despise, and the whole idea that sunlight is the best disinfectant, it's by far the least bad policy.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  'Sunlight is the best disinfectant' requires other users to do the disinfecting for you. It's saying that you have no strong convictions against users that end up harassing other users off your platform.
- Master_Odin 3y ago
  It's the paradox of tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), where by showing tolerance to the intolerant, the intolerant will eventually keep pushing and eventually destroy the tolerant.
  - version_five 3y ago
    Seems a lot like what's happening with the modern left, honestly. But I think there's a way around that, especially on platforms, it's just to separate opinion from personal attack. HN does that pretty well, though not perfectly. But in society people have gotten away with promoting this pretend idea that ideas can be the same as violence (or variation on that) and want to pretend that some general claim someone makes is the same as a personal attack. If we can have platforms that are mature enough not to get caught in that, I think it's possible for different views to be aired and repugnant ones to be called out.