4 ms·

I'm suspicious of permaculture because I had a friend back in the early 2000s that got into it with a local group and it seemed almost like a cult and they didn

I'm suspicious of permaculture because I had a friend back in the early 2000s that got into it with a local group and it seemed almost like a cult and they didn't produce enough food to feed a couple of hamsters that I saw. He did buy all the Mollison books and talked about how he was going to get land and hire people to do the work. I never figured out how he was intending to pay the people with the 20 gallons of persimmons he was optimistically going to get. I'm an agronomist by training so it was especially irritating arguing with him having been around at-scale food production, and this went on for months as he was totally obsessed. There are some interesting theories in it. Like catching water on a hill with terraces. Which people did in earlier times and maybe still do in certain parts of the world. A lot of things that people living a simpler life found out a long time ago presented as a "system". My takeaway though is that (as practiced anyway) it's a bit of an culty scam, but there are worse ones and people being outside and around nature and growing things is in sum a good thing in my opinion so maybe I'm being a bit harsh. Anyway, I don't know everything, but it just doesn't seem practical at any scale to provide calories. I'd probably feel better about it had I not heard this guy's impractical cultish preaching for months. I hope he is doing fine wherever he is and got his land in the end.

mercutio2 3y ago
I lived for many years on a commune where we strived to grow most of our own vegetables, and I always got a very culty vibe from permaculture folks, too (pot, kettle, some might say, but I distinguish cults and communes based on how welcome differing ideas are). Mostly because they seemed so didactic about it: oh yes, sure you're growing vegetables for yourself, but you're doing it wrong, not observing principle X or Y. Christopher Alexander adherents were always my favorite visitors, they'd talk about patterns as they understood them and ask questions about whether they applied. Somehow the permaculture folks all gave off a my-way-or-the-highway kind of vibe.
modo_mario 3y ago
Whilst I love this kinda stuff I have to admit describing things as systems and the like felt extremely buzwordy as if to make people feel like it was deeper than it actually is. I also feel like a good few of the things people did seemed like things invented or perpetuated by influencers so they could keep yapping on about something. Vermiculture is something I do for example. It makes no sense from a time/ effort perspective on a small scale compared to other composting methods but I liked that what i got out of it as amendment for my potting was at least weedfree by virtue of my own sorting and went trough it all relatively quickly. If I had to restart on my plot I wouldn't bother but hey it was fun and whilst a good part of of my garden is extremely productive I also grow some stuff that takes waaay too much effort for what I get out of it just for fun. But people are out there taking it to extremes without any second thoughts about whether it works and swear by it and end up dogmatic about things like compost teas. All fine and dandy when it's a little hobby but when it becomes more than that I hope most can differentiate between actually useful things and barely usefull gimmicks pushed by people selling more books and courses than veg.

mercutio2 3y ago

I lived for many years on a commune where we strived to grow most of our own vegetables, and I always got a very culty vibe from permaculture folks, too (pot, kettle, some might say, but I distinguish cults and communes based on how welcome differing ideas are). Mostly because they seemed so didactic about it: oh yes, sure you're growing vegetables for yourself, but you're doing it wrong, not observing principle X or Y. Christopher Alexander adherents were always my favorite visitors, they'd talk about patterns as they understood them and ask questions about whether they applied. Somehow the permaculture folks all gave off a my-way-or-the-highway kind of vibe.

modo_mario 3y ago

Whilst I love this kinda stuff I have to admit describing things as systems and the like felt extremely buzwordy as if to make people feel like it was deeper than it actually is. I also feel like a good few of the things people did seemed like things invented or perpetuated by influencers so they could keep yapping on about something. Vermiculture is something I do for example. It makes no sense from a time/ effort perspective on a small scale compared to other composting methods but I liked that what i got out of it as amendment for my potting was at least weedfree by virtue of my own sorting and went trough it all relatively quickly. If I had to restart on my plot I wouldn't bother but hey it was fun and whilst a good part of of my garden is extremely productive I also grow some stuff that takes waaay too much effort for what I get out of it just for fun. But people are out there taking it to extremes without any second thoughts about whether it works and swear by it and end up dogmatic about things like compost teas. All fine and dandy when it's a little hobby but when it becomes more than that I hope most can differentiate between actually useful things and barely usefull gimmicks pushed by people selling more books and courses than veg.