6 ms·

I abhor all banning and blocking from any source. It is an effrontery to getting to the truth and used as a weapon to shield wrongdoing. I don't like the messag

I abhor all banning and blocking from any source. It is an effrontery to getting to the truth and used as a weapon to shield wrongdoing. I don't like the message of the KKK for example but so what. Their numbers were declining without any censoring online...meh. The people can figure this out. We can't figure it out though banning people who might help us figure things out that's for sure.

sammalloy 3y ago
When you research the history of the KKK, you will see that they were purveyors of the original blocks and bans; whenever a non-Christian or non-white spoke out about equal treatment under the law or decided to move into their town and live like any other person, they would begin a state-sanctioned campaign of intimidation and harassment against their opponents, sometimes resulting in their intentional injury or deaths and destruction of their private property. I say state-sanctioned because the KKK were part of the establishment, from the police department all the way to the governor’s office. You say we should allow the message of extremists to be heard, but their message is loud and clear: we will destroy the lives and property of anyone who disagrees with us. And this is why I maintain that free speech absolutism is a total charade, a con job to provide cover for political violence and limitations on the free speech of their opponents. The people cannot figure this out if they running for their lives from terrorists who are trying to kill them. And yes, the KKK were the original homegrown terrorist movement, and they were protected and given safe harbor by the government, just as Musk is protecting the same type of people today on Twitter.
- babelthuap 3y ago
  I disagree. There is an episode of King of The Hill that mocks the KKK. You know what the KKK did? NOTHING. They didn't say a word. They didn't say a word because their numbers are very weak. It is a joke at this point. The episode actually used the KKK as actual jokes in Bobby's skit. Think about that for a minute. It went from feared to a joke in a cartoon show and nobody said a word because they are a joke.
  - sammalloy 3y ago
    I spent some time trying to parse your comment, but I’m afraid I just couldn’t do it. Right wing violence is the largest form of extremism in the US today. It is also largely based on the original values of the KKK, but operates on the level of lone wolves at the individual levels of violence (such as mass shootings) instead of the group. Today, the group level focuses on disseminating violent rhetoric from the top down, often from political actors using the cover of free speech through media outlets. It’s also still a major problem with law enforcement, as the ghost skins phenomenon of infiltration shows in FBI reporting on the subject. It’s not a joke, it’s one of the most pressing issues in 2023 America, and is emanating directly from the leaders of the GOP.
    - martin1b 3y ago
      There are so many "facts that aren't so" here, I'm not even going to attempt..
      - sammalloy 3y ago
        Name one. The only controversial thing I said is in the choice of specific terms and descriptions, which I acknowledge below with the following sources. For example, there is a debate over the terms lone wolf, leaderless resistance, and stochastic terrorism. Otherwise, the dispute over terms aside, it is correct. Right wing violence is the largest form of extremism in the US today. https://www.adl.org/resources/report/dark-and-constant-rage-25-years-right-wing-terrorism-united-states https://www.adl.org/resources/report/dark-and-constant-rage-... https://web.archive.org/web/20210131220343/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210131220343/https://www.nytim... It is also largely based on the original values of the KKK https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/cynthia-miller-idriss-white-supremacist-extremism-far-right-us https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/cynthia-miller-idriss-white... https://www.americanprogress.org/article/white-supremacy-returned-mainstream-politics/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/white-supremacy-ret... https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/03/31/rise-in-political-violence-in-united-states-and-damage-to-our-democracy-pub-87584 https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/03/31/rise-in-political-v... But operates on the level of lone wolves at the individual levels of violence (such as mass shootings) instead of the group. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2001/lone-wolves https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/... https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/white-supremacists-arent-lone-wolves/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/white-supremacists-are... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/the-new-strategy-of-violent-white-supremacy/595648/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/the-new-st... Today, the group level focuses on disseminating violent rhetoric from the top down, often from political actors using the cover of free speech through media outlets. https://theconversation.com/impeachment-trial-research-spanning-decades-shows-language-can-incite-violence-154615 https://theconversation.com/impeachment-trial-research-spann... https://apnews.com/article/1410b516f5b66c18d62342a0d7a9b60f https://apnews.com/article/1410b516f5b66c18d62342a0d7a9b60f https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump-domestic-terrorism/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump... https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/trumps-aiding-capitol-violence-world-watches-shows-us-now-exporting-extremism https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/trumps-a... It’s also still a major problem with law enforcement, as the ghost skins phenomenon of infiltration shows in FBI reporting on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Supremacist_Infiltration_of_Law_Enforcement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Supremacist_Infiltration... It is emanating directly from the leaders of the GOP. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/how-trumps-2024-presidential-bid-is-dominated-by-extremist-rhetoric https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/how-trumps-2024-presid... https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/donald-trump-cpac-dallas/ https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/donald-trump-cpac... https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump-domestic-terrorism/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/10/trump-death-wish-comment-to-mcconnell-political-violence https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/10/trump-death-wish-com... https://timesofsandiego.com/opinion/2021/01/19/in-the-end-it-was-trump-who-threatened-america-with-terrorism/ https://timesofsandiego.com/opinion/2021/01/19/in-the-end-it... https://time.com/5930592/everyone-thinks-im-a-terrorist-capitol-riot-fuels-calls-for-domestic-war-on-terror/ https://time.com/5930592/everyone-thinks-im-a-terrorist-capi... https://www.al.com/news/2023/05/tuberville-on-white-nationalists-in-the-military-i-call-them-americans.html https://www.al.com/news/2023/05/tuberville-on-white-national...
kmos17 3y ago
Like anything else free speech has to have some caveats, being an absolutist paints you into a corner and doesn’t allow you to see the full range of issues. From the old shouting fire in a crowded theater to inciting genocide, words can absolutely have real world consequences, and can be manipulated by outside forces that individuals are not equipped to fight against.
- babelthuap 3y ago
  [dead]
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    The platform does. This isn't hard. You can go check out Gab or whatever right now and see what happens when a platform prides itself on 'free speech'. A platform turning into a toxic wasteland because it doesn't want to ban or kick people off for being nasty means only the people who thrive in the muck will join.
    - babelthuap 3y ago
      Getting feelings hurt is not a crime. Harming people physically or financially is a crime. GAB isn't harming anyone. I don't like GAB but end of the day just because I don't like something banning them entirely is a form of evil. They have a right to exist. Most don't like them. They will never be a massive force of reason. Let it go because it's not going anywhere.
      - fzeroracer 3y ago
        What does this have anything to do with what I mentioned? I pointed to Gab as an example of why not curating your site is bad and what it leads to. This is why social media sites ban highly inflammatory content. You said blacklisting from any source is abhorrent. Then I recommend you post on Gab until you realize why curation is necessary.
- theturtletalks 3y ago

sammalloy 3y ago

When you research the history of the KKK, you will see that they were purveyors of the original blocks and bans; whenever a non-Christian or non-white spoke out about equal treatment under the law or decided to move into their town and live like any other person, they would begin a state-sanctioned campaign of intimidation and harassment against their opponents, sometimes resulting in their intentional injury or deaths and destruction of their private property. I say state-sanctioned because the KKK were part of the establishment, from the police department all the way to the governor’s office. You say we should allow the message of extremists to be heard, but their message is loud and clear: we will destroy the lives and property of anyone who disagrees with us. And this is why I maintain that free speech absolutism is a total charade, a con job to provide cover for political violence and limitations on the free speech of their opponents. The people cannot figure this out if they running for their lives from terrorists who are trying to kill them. And yes, the KKK were the original homegrown terrorist movement, and they were protected and given safe harbor by the government, just as Musk is protecting the same type of people today on Twitter.

babelthuap 3y ago
I disagree. There is an episode of King of The Hill that mocks the KKK. You know what the KKK did? NOTHING. They didn't say a word. They didn't say a word because their numbers are very weak. It is a joke at this point. The episode actually used the KKK as actual jokes in Bobby's skit. Think about that for a minute. It went from feared to a joke in a cartoon show and nobody said a word because they are a joke.
- sammalloy 3y ago
  I spent some time trying to parse your comment, but I’m afraid I just couldn’t do it. Right wing violence is the largest form of extremism in the US today. It is also largely based on the original values of the KKK, but operates on the level of lone wolves at the individual levels of violence (such as mass shootings) instead of the group. Today, the group level focuses on disseminating violent rhetoric from the top down, often from political actors using the cover of free speech through media outlets. It’s also still a major problem with law enforcement, as the ghost skins phenomenon of infiltration shows in FBI reporting on the subject. It’s not a joke, it’s one of the most pressing issues in 2023 America, and is emanating directly from the leaders of the GOP.
  - martin1b 3y ago
    There are so many "facts that aren't so" here, I'm not even going to attempt..
    - sammalloy 3y ago
      Name one. The only controversial thing I said is in the choice of specific terms and descriptions, which I acknowledge below with the following sources. For example, there is a debate over the terms lone wolf, leaderless resistance, and stochastic terrorism. Otherwise, the dispute over terms aside, it is correct. Right wing violence is the largest form of extremism in the US today. https://www.adl.org/resources/report/dark-and-constant-rage-25-years-right-wing-terrorism-united-states https://www.adl.org/resources/report/dark-and-constant-rage-... https://web.archive.org/web/20210131220343/https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-groups.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210131220343/https://www.nytim... It is also largely based on the original values of the KKK https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/cynthia-miller-idriss-white-supremacist-extremism-far-right-us https://www.gale.com/intl/essays/cynthia-miller-idriss-white... https://www.americanprogress.org/article/white-supremacy-returned-mainstream-politics/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/white-supremacy-ret... https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/03/31/rise-in-political-violence-in-united-states-and-damage-to-our-democracy-pub-87584 https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/03/31/rise-in-political-v... But operates on the level of lone wolves at the individual levels of violence (such as mass shootings) instead of the group. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2001/lone-wolves https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/... https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/white-supremacists-arent-lone-wolves/ https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/white-supremacists-are... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/the-new-strategy-of-violent-white-supremacy/595648/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/the-new-st... Today, the group level focuses on disseminating violent rhetoric from the top down, often from political actors using the cover of free speech through media outlets. https://theconversation.com/impeachment-trial-research-spanning-decades-shows-language-can-incite-violence-154615 https://theconversation.com/impeachment-trial-research-spann... https://apnews.com/article/1410b516f5b66c18d62342a0d7a9b60f https://apnews.com/article/1410b516f5b66c18d62342a0d7a9b60f https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump-domestic-terrorism/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump... https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/trumps-aiding-capitol-violence-world-watches-shows-us-now-exporting-extremism https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/trumps-a... It’s also still a major problem with law enforcement, as the ghost skins phenomenon of infiltration shows in FBI reporting on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_skin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Supremacist_Infiltration_of_Law_Enforcement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Supremacist_Infiltration... It is emanating directly from the leaders of the GOP. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/how-trumps-2024-presidential-bid-is-dominated-by-extremist-rhetoric https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/how-trumps-2024-presid... https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/donald-trump-cpac-dallas/ https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/donald-trump-cpac... https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump-domestic-terrorism/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/07/january-6-trump... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/10/trump-death-wish-comment-to-mcconnell-political-violence https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/10/trump-death-wish-com... https://timesofsandiego.com/opinion/2021/01/19/in-the-end-it-was-trump-who-threatened-america-with-terrorism/ https://timesofsandiego.com/opinion/2021/01/19/in-the-end-it... https://time.com/5930592/everyone-thinks-im-a-terrorist-capitol-riot-fuels-calls-for-domestic-war-on-terror/ https://time.com/5930592/everyone-thinks-im-a-terrorist-capi... https://www.al.com/news/2023/05/tuberville-on-white-nationalists-in-the-military-i-call-them-americans.html https://www.al.com/news/2023/05/tuberville-on-white-national...

kmos17 3y ago

Like anything else free speech has to have some caveats, being an absolutist paints you into a corner and doesn’t allow you to see the full range of issues. From the old shouting fire in a crowded theater to inciting genocide, words can absolutely have real world consequences, and can be manipulated by outside forces that individuals are not equipped to fight against.

babelthuap 3y ago
[dead]
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  The platform does. This isn't hard. You can go check out Gab or whatever right now and see what happens when a platform prides itself on 'free speech'. A platform turning into a toxic wasteland because it doesn't want to ban or kick people off for being nasty means only the people who thrive in the muck will join.
  - babelthuap 3y ago
    Getting feelings hurt is not a crime. Harming people physically or financially is a crime. GAB isn't harming anyone. I don't like GAB but end of the day just because I don't like something banning them entirely is a form of evil. They have a right to exist. Most don't like them. They will never be a massive force of reason. Let it go because it's not going anywhere.
    - fzeroracer 3y ago
      What does this have anything to do with what I mentioned? I pointed to Gab as an example of why not curating your site is bad and what it leads to. This is why social media sites ban highly inflammatory content. You said blacklisting from any source is abhorrent. Then I recommend you post on Gab until you realize why curation is necessary.
theturtletalks 3y ago