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>Where are you getting the idea that Big Ag has less environmental impact than a backyard garden??? Most studies I've seen suggest that the larger the farming

>Where are you getting the idea that Big Ag has less environmental impact than a backyard garden??? Most studies I've seen suggest that the larger the farming operation, the more efficiently it's able to use resources. Most of those were small/organic farms instead of a backyard garden, but I don't see many reasons to think it would be better. >When properly applied, permaculture is about minimal effort. You still put in more effort than most people. Someone working a median wage job will be able to buy more food in the time it takes you to maintain your garden. The only exception are the very poor. >Yes, that's also the point of permaculture: diverting waste streams and closing loops. Diverting waste is good, but when scaled up it won't be sufficient. You won't be able to get free fertilizer from people that prune trees because everyone will want it, and that's assuming a lot of this waste would still even be produced in an environmentally conscious world. You will most likely need to produce all of it on your own. >Huh? Where are you getting the idea that permaculture encourages resource theft and tax avoidance? To be fair, this is just from the permaculture people that I know. Many of them work very little and pay nothing in taxes, use medicare, and are still well off because a lot of their labor is untaxable. They live in suburbs and the country where stuff like roads and water are provided to them at a loss to society.

CapstanRoller 3y ago
>Most studies I've seen suggest that the larger the farming operation, the more efficiently it's able to use resources. Yes, this is true for modern agriculture, because it's an industrial process that benefits from economies of scale. Unfortunately that process is unsustainable and will ultimately deplete our fertilizer resources while damaging the environment. >Someone working a median wage job will be able to buy more food in the time it takes you to maintain your garden. Permaculture isn't about returning to peasantry. Permaculture is about integrating food production into society while expending minimal effort (less effort than even mowing a lawn). >You won't be able to get free fertilizer from people that prune trees because everyone will want it Fertilizer doesn't need to come from pruned trees. In fact, wood chips alone don't really make for good compost. Properly designed permaculture systems coupled with local programs such as neighborhood composting and an understanding of the local ecosystem can produce a huge amount of food with very little effort or input. >Many of them work very little and pay nothing in taxes, use medicare, and are still well off because a lot of their labor is untaxable. OK, and? Maybe the answer is to reform how we structure society and taxes instead of claiming that low-impact sustainable lifestyles are somehow a form of "theft". You could make the same argument about how people who refuse to buy a new iPhone every year are "stealing" resources because they don't contribute enough to an economy structured around overproduction and waste. It's absurd.
- lukas099 3y ago
  To be fair, the person you're responding to didn't use the word "theft" which you're quoting. That came from someone who replied to them.
- zeroCalories 3y ago
  The point isn't about wood chips in particular. I'm saying that the waste you're diverting won't be enough to sustain you if everyone is trying to get it, and ideally there wouldn't be any waste to begin with. That means we will return to some form of industrial process, and the bigger the better. Of course, we will want to encourage people to farm sustainability through policy, which will be far easier if there are a few centralized operations instead of a large number of small distributed operations. >OK, and? Maybe the answer is to reform how we structure society and taxes instead of claiming that low-impact sustainable lifestyles are somehow a form of "theft You're avoiding taxes while depending heavily on tax payer provided services. Not scalable for a modern society. > You could make the same argument about how people who refuse to buy a new iPhone every year are "stealing" resources because they don't contribute enough to an economy structured around overproduction and waste. It's absurd. No? It's not about contributing to an economy, it's about contributing your fair share for the public good. A better comparison might be crypto people that want to avoid taxes by doing all transactions under the table.
  - CapstanRoller 3y ago
    >the waste you're diverting won't be enough to sustain you if everyone is trying to get it, and ideally there wouldn't be any waste to begin with There's always going to be food waste in the sense that we cannot eat every part of every vegetable. And, again, there are many other ways to generate things like compost and fertilizer without using waste — cover crops, aquaponics, etc. >avoiding taxes I "avoid" taxes by keeping old electronics alive, repairing things I find, and helping friends do the same. Is that wrong, by your ethical framework? This fascination with taxes is utterly bizarre. >It's not about contributing to an economy, it's about contributing your fair share for the public good. Large parts of the economy don't operate for the public good. Giving money to Monsanto, for example, is actively detrimental for the public good.

CapstanRoller 3y ago

>Most studies I've seen suggest that the larger the farming operation, the more efficiently it's able to use resources. Yes, this is true for modern agriculture, because it's an industrial process that benefits from economies of scale. Unfortunately that process is unsustainable and will ultimately deplete our fertilizer resources while damaging the environment. >Someone working a median wage job will be able to buy more food in the time it takes you to maintain your garden. Permaculture isn't about returning to peasantry. Permaculture is about integrating food production into society while expending minimal effort (less effort than even mowing a lawn). >You won't be able to get free fertilizer from people that prune trees because everyone will want it Fertilizer doesn't need to come from pruned trees. In fact, wood chips alone don't really make for good compost. Properly designed permaculture systems coupled with local programs such as neighborhood composting and an understanding of the local ecosystem can produce a huge amount of food with very little effort or input. >Many of them work very little and pay nothing in taxes, use medicare, and are still well off because a lot of their labor is untaxable. OK, and? Maybe the answer is to reform how we structure society and taxes instead of claiming that low-impact sustainable lifestyles are somehow a form of "theft". You could make the same argument about how people who refuse to buy a new iPhone every year are "stealing" resources because they don't contribute enough to an economy structured around overproduction and waste. It's absurd.

lukas099 3y ago
To be fair, the person you're responding to didn't use the word "theft" which you're quoting. That came from someone who replied to them.
zeroCalories 3y ago
The point isn't about wood chips in particular. I'm saying that the waste you're diverting won't be enough to sustain you if everyone is trying to get it, and ideally there wouldn't be any waste to begin with. That means we will return to some form of industrial process, and the bigger the better. Of course, we will want to encourage people to farm sustainability through policy, which will be far easier if there are a few centralized operations instead of a large number of small distributed operations. >OK, and? Maybe the answer is to reform how we structure society and taxes instead of claiming that low-impact sustainable lifestyles are somehow a form of "theft You're avoiding taxes while depending heavily on tax payer provided services. Not scalable for a modern society. > You could make the same argument about how people who refuse to buy a new iPhone every year are "stealing" resources because they don't contribute enough to an economy structured around overproduction and waste. It's absurd. No? It's not about contributing to an economy, it's about contributing your fair share for the public good. A better comparison might be crypto people that want to avoid taxes by doing all transactions under the table.
- CapstanRoller 3y ago
  >the waste you're diverting won't be enough to sustain you if everyone is trying to get it, and ideally there wouldn't be any waste to begin with There's always going to be food waste in the sense that we cannot eat every part of every vegetable. And, again, there are many other ways to generate things like compost and fertilizer without using waste — cover crops, aquaponics, etc. >avoiding taxes I "avoid" taxes by keeping old electronics alive, repairing things I find, and helping friends do the same. Is that wrong, by your ethical framework? This fascination with taxes is utterly bizarre. >It's not about contributing to an economy, it's about contributing your fair share for the public good. Large parts of the economy don't operate for the public good. Giving money to Monsanto, for example, is actively detrimental for the public good.