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I will say this, even if I am aware that I will be crucified for saying it; because we all have heroes and villains and try to think the world is black and whit

by dijit 4y ago

I will say this, even if I am aware that I will be crucified for saying it; because we all have heroes and villains and try to think the world is black and white -- and we especially don't like to think poorly of the people who's political opinions we agree with. However: I have gone really sour on the CCC since 2019. I agree with a lot of the political opinions they express but the method in which they express them really makes me feel as if they're trying to bring the movement down. For example: I have been tangially related to a degree of bullying behaviour in the under the guise of "everyone who disagrees with me is a right wing troll". I might go back to the events, it's still the best computer conference in Europe in my opinion. I must express to them how skittish on the events I have become though (and this is my way of making them know that, even if I'm quite certain people will loudly disagree with me on the basis that "if you disagree with them then you are probably also a right wing troll"). Which, anyone who knows me will certainly disagree with and it's not like I'm hiding behind a throwaway. I will gladly take the downvotes to express this, it proves nothing.

1827163 4y ago
Is that something to do with Geek Feminism and the imposition of "codes of conduct" on conference attendees? And doing so has politicized the events? If that is true, then it's yet another example of pressure groups imposing their agenda on these events. It started roughly in 2014. Or was there a general political shift which coincides with this, at the time? Anyway, I have stopped going to these events because of the politics, particularly the censorship aspect. These "codes of conduct" go against my fundamental principles of freedom of speech and liberty, the whole reason I got involved in open source in the first place. They prohibit far more than rude or aggressive behavior. And they are a specific political group's attempt to control what we can say at these events and on occasion, even outside them. Whatever it was, something changed politically in 2014 - 2016 timeframe or so. Maybe a major social media platform changed it's policies which allowed this behavior to flourish? I'm wildly speculating here. Prior to that we didn't really care about anything political, other than civil liberties at these conferences? But there wasn't really this left-wing / right-wing divide back then. At least not from what I remember. After thinking about it for a while, yes, nobody cared if you were liberal or conservative before that. I'm not going to allow any chilling effect to prevent me from speaking up about it, and I'm taking any downvotes and flagging as well. It will be interesting to see what happens. It's good that this site doesn't delete flagged posts, it just hides them from view by default. That way we avoid the "spiral of silence" effect that leads to self-censorship. If we all did the same, then this problem, assuming it is valid, would not have existed in the first place.
- schmidtleonard 4y ago
  > I'm not going to allow any chilling effect to prevent me from speaking up Please pick your battles. In any case, good luck.
  - 1827163 4y ago
    Someone has to speak up, otherwise we will remain in the present situation, which sounds very dire indeed. OK, whatever it is, it's my first foray into it, and I hope I'm treading carefully enough?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- slily 4y ago
  At face value, most of the codes of conduct that popped up recently look reasonable, but they were introduced in response to a movement that has replaced this simple, straightforward and truly inclusive idea of treating everyone respectfully with an obsession about labels, group representation and calling out any remote perceived slight towards protected groups. Sometimes I wonder if I would have better professional opportunities or job safety if I specified that I am homosexual on LinkedIn and behaved flamboyantly instead of keeping it to myself. This call for participation reinforces that feeling with language like "[We] especially want to encourage FLINTA* (Female, Lesbian, Inter, Non-Binary, Trans, Agender) and Queer individuals, BIPOC and humans from the Global South to submit their talks, workshops or Lightning Talks." Once, I saw a regular attendee in another conference complain that there are too many white males, suggesting that they should refrain from attending, and perhaps send a woman or a person who is not white to represent their company instead, and "threatening" to withdraw himself because he is also a white male. Of course no one openly disagreed with him. The risk to personal reputation and even employment is too high. The conversation definitely turned quiet after this, however. I do think we are being led around by extremists, and I am happy to eat some angry replies, downvotes, and flags to have a chance to express this as well.
woodruffw 4y ago
As someone who was planning on going to CCC for the first time this year: this is very oblique, and doesn't give me the context that I need to understand your grievance. What exactly is the problem with CCC, and what happened in 2019? (I didn't downvote you.)
- dijit 4y ago
  If I am specific people will come to defend people or attack others. I'm being purposefully unspecific. The message is intended to be read by the people who are enforcing vague rules, making hit groups, publicly humiliating others and in one case using physical force (and smugly). The people I'm referring to know exactly who they are, and the people who surround them know who I am referring to also. Which is the only people that a message such as this is meant to be serving. It's not meant as a warning to anyone else. I'm quite sure you will have fun at CCC it really is a blast - please don't read it as a warning. It is quite likely that you will feel the environment hints at what I am referring to, but I doubt it will affect your enjoyment unless you cross one of these people --- which is very unlikely of course, but it's something I am personally very wary of.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    This isn't more than a conspiracy theory than? You're not ready to give substance to your accusations, while simultaneously expecting us to accept your theory that there is some kind of conspiracy going on against your opinion and those who conspire would be those who "understand" your broad and unfunded accusations. Because this is the only way it wouldn't make your comment above look like just another conspiracy. Paradox.
  - 1827163 4y ago
    And that is the essence of the "spiral of silence", because everyone stays quiet about it, then the problem never gets tackled by the community. It's precisely how totalitarian regimes work. We should all make a considerable effort to gather as much evidence as possible, so it can be forwarded to law enforcement for investigation? We have audio recorders, covert body cameras, you name it, they are all readily available and inexpensive nowadays (assuming it's legal to do so, which depends on the jurisdiction).
the_third_wave 4y ago
It is really sad to see how the Code of Conduct Crew has infiltrated the Chaos Computer Club and turned the Chaos Communication Camp into yet another target for the thought police. This really stands diametrically opposed to the original intent of these hacker camps and, if allowed to continue, can be the death knell for this type of gathering of free minds. One of the keynote speakers for H2K was Jello Biafra, the frontman for the Dead Kennedys. His message of "don't criticise the media, become the media" was well received and has in many ways come to fruition with the advent of "alternative" media ranging from individuals to well-organised groups publishing text, audio and video over the 'net. The message was clear, freedom of expression is core to the somewhat anarchist-leaning crowd which tends to go to these meetings. The Code of Conduct Crew's message seems to be "don't criticise us, obey us". While this is not the first time a "somewhat anarchist organisation" [1] gets taken over by authoritarians it would be a big loss if they succeeded. [1] anarchist as in "a herd of cats", not as in "people in trench coats throwing bombs"

by dijit 4y ago

1827163 4y ago

Is that something to do with Geek Feminism and the imposition of "codes of conduct" on conference attendees? And doing so has politicized the events? If that is true, then it's yet another example of pressure groups imposing their agenda on these events. It started roughly in 2014. Or was there a general political shift which coincides with this, at the time? Anyway, I have stopped going to these events because of the politics, particularly the censorship aspect. These "codes of conduct" go against my fundamental principles of freedom of speech and liberty, the whole reason I got involved in open source in the first place. They prohibit far more than rude or aggressive behavior. And they are a specific political group's attempt to control what we can say at these events and on occasion, even outside them. Whatever it was, something changed politically in 2014 - 2016 timeframe or so. Maybe a major social media platform changed it's policies which allowed this behavior to flourish? I'm wildly speculating here. Prior to that we didn't really care about anything political, other than civil liberties at these conferences? But there wasn't really this left-wing / right-wing divide back then. At least not from what I remember. After thinking about it for a while, yes, nobody cared if you were liberal or conservative before that. I'm not going to allow any chilling effect to prevent me from speaking up about it, and I'm taking any downvotes and flagging as well. It will be interesting to see what happens. It's good that this site doesn't delete flagged posts, it just hides them from view by default. That way we avoid the "spiral of silence" effect that leads to self-censorship. If we all did the same, then this problem, assuming it is valid, would not have existed in the first place.

schmidtleonard 4y ago
> I'm not going to allow any chilling effect to prevent me from speaking up Please pick your battles. In any case, good luck.
- 1827163 4y ago
  Someone has to speak up, otherwise we will remain in the present situation, which sounds very dire indeed. OK, whatever it is, it's my first foray into it, and I hope I'm treading carefully enough?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
slily 4y ago
At face value, most of the codes of conduct that popped up recently look reasonable, but they were introduced in response to a movement that has replaced this simple, straightforward and truly inclusive idea of treating everyone respectfully with an obsession about labels, group representation and calling out any remote perceived slight towards protected groups. Sometimes I wonder if I would have better professional opportunities or job safety if I specified that I am homosexual on LinkedIn and behaved flamboyantly instead of keeping it to myself. This call for participation reinforces that feeling with language like "[We] especially want to encourage FLINTA* (Female, Lesbian, Inter, Non-Binary, Trans, Agender) and Queer individuals, BIPOC and humans from the Global South to submit their talks, workshops or Lightning Talks." Once, I saw a regular attendee in another conference complain that there are too many white males, suggesting that they should refrain from attending, and perhaps send a woman or a person who is not white to represent their company instead, and "threatening" to withdraw himself because he is also a white male. Of course no one openly disagreed with him. The risk to personal reputation and even employment is too high. The conversation definitely turned quiet after this, however. I do think we are being led around by extremists, and I am happy to eat some angry replies, downvotes, and flags to have a chance to express this as well.

woodruffw 4y ago

As someone who was planning on going to CCC for the first time this year: this is very oblique, and doesn't give me the context that I need to understand your grievance. What exactly is the problem with CCC, and what happened in 2019? (I didn't downvote you.)

dijit 4y ago
If I am specific people will come to defend people or attack others. I'm being purposefully unspecific. The message is intended to be read by the people who are enforcing vague rules, making hit groups, publicly humiliating others and in one case using physical force (and smugly). The people I'm referring to know exactly who they are, and the people who surround them know who I am referring to also. Which is the only people that a message such as this is meant to be serving. It's not meant as a warning to anyone else. I'm quite sure you will have fun at CCC it really is a blast - please don't read it as a warning. It is quite likely that you will feel the environment hints at what I am referring to, but I doubt it will affect your enjoyment unless you cross one of these people --- which is very unlikely of course, but it's something I am personally very wary of.
- Krasnol 4y ago
  This isn't more than a conspiracy theory than? You're not ready to give substance to your accusations, while simultaneously expecting us to accept your theory that there is some kind of conspiracy going on against your opinion and those who conspire would be those who "understand" your broad and unfunded accusations. Because this is the only way it wouldn't make your comment above look like just another conspiracy. Paradox.
- 1827163 4y ago
  And that is the essence of the "spiral of silence", because everyone stays quiet about it, then the problem never gets tackled by the community. It's precisely how totalitarian regimes work. We should all make a considerable effort to gather as much evidence as possible, so it can be forwarded to law enforcement for investigation? We have audio recorders, covert body cameras, you name it, they are all readily available and inexpensive nowadays (assuming it's legal to do so, which depends on the jurisdiction).

the_third_wave 4y ago

It is really sad to see how the Code of Conduct Crew has infiltrated the Chaos Computer Club and turned the Chaos Communication Camp into yet another target for the thought police. This really stands diametrically opposed to the original intent of these hacker camps and, if allowed to continue, can be the death knell for this type of gathering of free minds. One of the keynote speakers for H2K was Jello Biafra, the frontman for the Dead Kennedys. His message of "don't criticise the media, become the media" was well received and has in many ways come to fruition with the advent of "alternative" media ranging from individuals to well-organised groups publishing text, audio and video over the 'net. The message was clear, freedom of expression is core to the somewhat anarchist-leaning crowd which tends to go to these meetings. The Code of Conduct Crew's message seems to be "don't criticise us, obey us". While this is not the first time a "somewhat anarchist organisation" [1] gets taken over by authoritarians it would be a big loss if they succeeded. [1] anarchist as in "a herd of cats", not as in "people in trench coats throwing bombs"