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The agricultural system doesn't need to break down in order for us to realize it's deeply damaging and unsustainable. Ideally we'd realize this and change our w

The agricultural system doesn't need to break down in order for us to realize it's deeply damaging and unsustainable. Ideally we'd realize this and change our ways before breaks down — that's why permaculture exists. You're confusing permaculture with prepping.

lmm 3y ago
> The agricultural system doesn't need to break down in order for us to realize it's deeply damaging and unsustainable. Ideally we'd realize this and change our ways before breaks down — that's why permaculture exists. I'm pretty sure the systemic fix isn't going to be everyone having their own backyard plot. > You're confusing permaculture with prepping. Well, if you're talking about "98% of the US population would starve" that's absolutely prepper talk.
- dogcomplex 3y ago
  Yeah, and even if you're that worried about societal agricultural instability, you're better off spending hobby time to make something like a dead-simple replicatable potato growing kit and distributing it out at a loss. Barring something truly irreversibly apocalyptic, that'd provide most of what's needed until things rebound.
  - saalweachter 3y ago
    Or you could get involved in public policy. I assume there are some boffins somewhere in the US's $4 trillion dollar budget -- USDA, probably -- who are coming up with plans for things like "what if wheat is decimated by a blight?" or "what if Missouri is just, all flooded?". Probably a bunch of academics at various Midwest universities, too. There are already grants and other public programs to support community gardens and local agriculture; a community garden should be the perfect place to apply permaculture.
- CapstanRoller 3y ago
  The goal isn't for everyone to have a backyard plot. You're still seeing this from a very individualist American viewpoint. In fact, no one should have yards at all (at least not as we understand them now). The goal is to integrate food production into society in a more seamless and holistic way.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > The goal isn't for everyone to have a backyard plot. That seems to be what it amounts to in practice though. Noble goals are a fine thing, but your steps towards the goal need to actually constitute progress towards the goal.
    - CapstanRoller 3y ago
      >That seems to be what it amounts to in practice though. In some cases it is. So what? Even that form of practice is valuable. One can't expect the permaculture people to also stage an overnight revolution and reform society. The social changes I describe are needed badly, but they are outside the scope of permaculture itself. Permaculture is is an important aspect of a much larger goal around sustainability.
      - lmm 3y ago
        > Even that form of practice is valuable How? > One can't expect the permaculture people to also stage an overnight revolution and reform society. The social changes I describe are needed badly, but they are outside the scope of permaculture itself How can you claim permaculture is about the goals you described if it's not contributing to them?
        CapstanRoller 3y ago
        The practice is valuable because it increases knowledge. You don't build large-scale projects first, you build prototypes first (and many of them) then iterate. >How can you claim permaculture is about the goals you described if it's not contributing to them? Permaculture is not about those goals specifically. It can contribute to those goals, aligns with them nicely, and many people who are into permaculture are also into those other goals, but it is not the goal. The engine is not the entire car.

lmm 3y ago

> The agricultural system doesn't need to break down in order for us to realize it's deeply damaging and unsustainable. Ideally we'd realize this and change our ways before breaks down — that's why permaculture exists. I'm pretty sure the systemic fix isn't going to be everyone having their own backyard plot. > You're confusing permaculture with prepping. Well, if you're talking about "98% of the US population would starve" that's absolutely prepper talk.

dogcomplex 3y ago
Yeah, and even if you're that worried about societal agricultural instability, you're better off spending hobby time to make something like a dead-simple replicatable potato growing kit and distributing it out at a loss. Barring something truly irreversibly apocalyptic, that'd provide most of what's needed until things rebound.
- saalweachter 3y ago
  Or you could get involved in public policy. I assume there are some boffins somewhere in the US's $4 trillion dollar budget -- USDA, probably -- who are coming up with plans for things like "what if wheat is decimated by a blight?" or "what if Missouri is just, all flooded?". Probably a bunch of academics at various Midwest universities, too. There are already grants and other public programs to support community gardens and local agriculture; a community garden should be the perfect place to apply permaculture.
CapstanRoller 3y ago
The goal isn't for everyone to have a backyard plot. You're still seeing this from a very individualist American viewpoint. In fact, no one should have yards at all (at least not as we understand them now). The goal is to integrate food production into society in a more seamless and holistic way.
- lmm 3y ago
  > The goal isn't for everyone to have a backyard plot. That seems to be what it amounts to in practice though. Noble goals are a fine thing, but your steps towards the goal need to actually constitute progress towards the goal.
  - CapstanRoller 3y ago
    >That seems to be what it amounts to in practice though. In some cases it is. So what? Even that form of practice is valuable. One can't expect the permaculture people to also stage an overnight revolution and reform society. The social changes I describe are needed badly, but they are outside the scope of permaculture itself. Permaculture is is an important aspect of a much larger goal around sustainability.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > Even that form of practice is valuable How? > One can't expect the permaculture people to also stage an overnight revolution and reform society. The social changes I describe are needed badly, but they are outside the scope of permaculture itself How can you claim permaculture is about the goals you described if it's not contributing to them?
      - CapstanRoller 3y ago
        The practice is valuable because it increases knowledge. You don't build large-scale projects first, you build prototypes first (and many of them) then iterate. >How can you claim permaculture is about the goals you described if it's not contributing to them? Permaculture is not about those goals specifically. It can contribute to those goals, aligns with them nicely, and many people who are into permaculture are also into those other goals, but it is not the goal. The engine is not the entire car.