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> Having a full DAW on the go is a killer feature imho. I think the problem here that most won't realize is that they'll have no idea what you're listening to

> Having a full DAW on the go is a killer feature imho. I think the problem here that most won't realize is that they'll have no idea what you're listening to and so will be mixing audio in the dark, so to speak. Professionals will check headphone mixes, but generally won't mix with headphones certainly not bluetooth headphones. I suppose there may exist such a thing as powered Bluetooth monitors, but again, the wireless Bluetooth, and what it does to audio, is the weak part in the chain. iPad built in speakers are not flat, so if you mix for them, the audio might only sound alright coming out of an iPad. There are probably audio docks for iPad which will include a DAC for converting stereo sound from the iPad USB-C port, and jacks for monitors, but I have never seen one that doesn't have the cheapest components available. Not sure of the current abilities of iPad and USB-C, but last I heard, iPad was only capable of stereo in and stereo out. There's a lot that can be done with just two tracks, but do not doubt that everything depends on the converters and preamps, so a professional quality USB-C ADC/DAC with decent pres (unless off-boarded) is paramount to creating half decent tracks, which is paramount to creating very good mixes. Not everyone is a professional audio engineer, and everyone here that is an expert at everything will likely be satisfied with terrible converters and the audio they produce. YMMV

B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
> the wireless Bluetooth, and what it does to audio, It should do about the same as the "oxygen-free copper" cables, perhaps slower - moving bits from A to B. Is there any evidence otherwise?
- 0x457 3y ago
  Well, BT introduces additional delay and jitter. It's fine for listening to music because you can "cache" segments. That's totally not going to working real-time audio. Apple doesn't support aptX HD, aptX Lossless, LDAC for Bluetooth devices. IIRC they use AAC 256 kbps for their wireless audio. Once again, totally fine for listening Spotify and apply music, but I imagine suboptimal for DAW.
  - Ancapistani 3y ago
    I had a brief foray into using a set of Bluetooth headphones for PC gaming. It was “brief” because the delay was enough that it got me killed in games regularly enough that it was just intolerable.
    - 0x457 3y ago
      Yeah, for gaming you need headphones that use some proprietary protocol, unfortunately. BT just doesn't work well. It's not as noticeable for people who never talked on a real landline phone (i.e. not VoIP) because everything else has noticeable and often non-constant latency.
- recursive 3y ago
  Evidence? It uses lossy audio codecs. Some are good, and some are less good, but they're all lossy. The quality loss happens before the bits hit the radio. That part is fine, as you note. "Oxygen-free copper", regardless of whether it's beneficial, is generally used for analog signals, which isn't moving bits at all. Bluetooth also introduces latency. It might be ok for mixing, but it's completely unusable for recording applications.
aflag 3y ago
Can't the software correct for the iPad speaker so that it's effectively flat?
- mod50ack 3y ago
  I'm fairly sure this isn't quite possible. It has to do with the physical properties of the space. Not that I'm an actual audio engineer. Not to mention that the iPad speakers are probably mostly designed to be compact and this probably places some limitations on what they can do.
koiueo 3y ago
> abilities of iPad and USB-C I use iPad with RME ADI DAC-2 and I can't think of a single issue.
- Maursault 3y ago
  > I use iPad with RME ADI DAC-2 and I can't think of a single issue. I hope I missed a joke. That is a high end DAC that retails for $1300, and could very well be the best DAC available for less $1500. That'll do nicely. I'd prefer Lavry Engineering's discontinued DA11 (and AD11), but it's somewhat of a judgement call at that level.
  - koiueo 3y ago
    There's nothing special in RME regarding its USB operation. iPad can emit material with different sampling rate (haven't verified different bit depth, but I guess, there should be no issues), iPad also knows not to meddle with the software mixing and delegates everything to the DAC. It behaves exactly as I'd like it to behave. No joke intended. My point was, that if iPad has no issues with this device, then it must be able to drive any other USB Audio Class interface.
    - Maursault 3y ago
      > There's nothing special in RME regarding its USB operation. It's USB Audio that is special. > iPad can emit material with different sampling rate (haven't verified different bit depth, but I guess, there should be no issues), Core Audio is a component of iPadOS and iOS, and along with Core Audio comes everything Core Audio can do. > iPad also knows not to meddle with the software mixing Is there an example or anecdote you have in mind of a platform meddling with mixing? > and delegates everything to the DAC. It's really USB Audio that is performing these miracles.
      - koiueo 3y ago
        > Is there an example or anecdote you have in mind of a platform meddling with mixing? Sure, Android resamples everything to 48kHz, uses software mixing. No workaround. GNU/Linux by default does the same with PipeWire, PulseAudio and ALSA (dmix). One can configure it for bitperfect playback though. I can’t say about modern Windows, the last one I used was Windows 7, and by default it resampled everything to 48kHz too. > USB Audio that is special The last time I saw a non USB audio class device was some 15 years ago. I frankly do not understand, why are you stressing this so much.

B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago

> the wireless Bluetooth, and what it does to audio, It should do about the same as the "oxygen-free copper" cables, perhaps slower - moving bits from A to B. Is there any evidence otherwise?

0x457 3y ago
Well, BT introduces additional delay and jitter. It's fine for listening to music because you can "cache" segments. That's totally not going to working real-time audio. Apple doesn't support aptX HD, aptX Lossless, LDAC for Bluetooth devices. IIRC they use AAC 256 kbps for their wireless audio. Once again, totally fine for listening Spotify and apply music, but I imagine suboptimal for DAW.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  I had a brief foray into using a set of Bluetooth headphones for PC gaming. It was “brief” because the delay was enough that it got me killed in games regularly enough that it was just intolerable.
  - 0x457 3y ago
    Yeah, for gaming you need headphones that use some proprietary protocol, unfortunately. BT just doesn't work well. It's not as noticeable for people who never talked on a real landline phone (i.e. not VoIP) because everything else has noticeable and often non-constant latency.
recursive 3y ago
Evidence? It uses lossy audio codecs. Some are good, and some are less good, but they're all lossy. The quality loss happens before the bits hit the radio. That part is fine, as you note. "Oxygen-free copper", regardless of whether it's beneficial, is generally used for analog signals, which isn't moving bits at all. Bluetooth also introduces latency. It might be ok for mixing, but it's completely unusable for recording applications.

aflag 3y ago

Can't the software correct for the iPad speaker so that it's effectively flat?

mod50ack 3y ago
I'm fairly sure this isn't quite possible. It has to do with the physical properties of the space. Not that I'm an actual audio engineer. Not to mention that the iPad speakers are probably mostly designed to be compact and this probably places some limitations on what they can do.

koiueo 3y ago

> abilities of iPad and USB-C I use iPad with RME ADI DAC-2 and I can't think of a single issue.

Maursault 3y ago
> I use iPad with RME ADI DAC-2 and I can't think of a single issue. I hope I missed a joke. That is a high end DAC that retails for $1300, and could very well be the best DAC available for less $1500. That'll do nicely. I'd prefer Lavry Engineering's discontinued DA11 (and AD11), but it's somewhat of a judgement call at that level.
- koiueo 3y ago
  There's nothing special in RME regarding its USB operation. iPad can emit material with different sampling rate (haven't verified different bit depth, but I guess, there should be no issues), iPad also knows not to meddle with the software mixing and delegates everything to the DAC. It behaves exactly as I'd like it to behave. No joke intended. My point was, that if iPad has no issues with this device, then it must be able to drive any other USB Audio Class interface.
  - Maursault 3y ago
    > There's nothing special in RME regarding its USB operation. It's USB Audio that is special. > iPad can emit material with different sampling rate (haven't verified different bit depth, but I guess, there should be no issues), Core Audio is a component of iPadOS and iOS, and along with Core Audio comes everything Core Audio can do. > iPad also knows not to meddle with the software mixing Is there an example or anecdote you have in mind of a platform meddling with mixing? > and delegates everything to the DAC. It's really USB Audio that is performing these miracles.
    - koiueo 3y ago
      > Is there an example or anecdote you have in mind of a platform meddling with mixing? Sure, Android resamples everything to 48kHz, uses software mixing. No workaround. GNU/Linux by default does the same with PipeWire, PulseAudio and ALSA (dmix). One can configure it for bitperfect playback though. I can’t say about modern Windows, the last one I used was Windows 7, and by default it resampled everything to 48kHz too. > USB Audio that is special The last time I saw a non USB audio class device was some 15 years ago. I frankly do not understand, why are you stressing this so much.