4 ms·

That is missing the point. It is the trajectory. Machines that can analyze all orthogonal data to understand your behavior is not limited to a single dimension

That is missing the point. It is the trajectory. Machines that can analyze all orthogonal data to understand your behavior is not limited to a single dimension of a MRI machine. Facial expression analysis, all of your online conversations, the existence of your entire life is being monitored and recorded. There will be enough data to perceive beyond the veil into the thoughts of the mind.

rcme 3y ago
This is the plot of the show Person of Interest.
- ldhough 3y ago
  This was always one of my favorite shows. For (what started as) a police procedural, it was incredibly prescient in many ways.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yep, terrific show. For the tech person there are a few cringe things but overall it's pretty awewsome and highly recommend.
coding123 3y ago
It is definitely missing the point - capturing of brain waves does not require liquid cooling etc. In fact it's something that could theoretically be squeezed into the next Meta Quest to just "capture". Then it would just be stored until they are ready with an airflow pipeline to pass it into the nn.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  During the pandemic, I built a device that records "brain waves". Not with the fidelity that would be needed to be a useful medical instrument -- let alone read minds -- but the fact that I, a fairly average geek, can do so using my own equipment and for less than $100 seems meaningful. The device itself is very small, battery-powered (for safety) and requires that you attach electrodes to your scalp.
- stickfigure 3y ago
  EEG != MRI. Nobody claims to be able to read your thoughts via EEG.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I suspect that the underlying point here is that when EEGs first came around in the 1920s, they were also extremely expensive and not available for common use. But since then, the technologies involved have become so much more accessible and affordable that an electronics hobbyist can build one for themself, maybe even using parts they already have kicking around. MRIs may very well follow a similar trajectory over time. Personally, I don't think this will happen in the very near future -- but history shows us time and time again that it's good to start thinking about these things well before they become practical.
    - stickfigure 3y ago
      That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. MRI machines operate by creating intense magnetic fields. In order to create those magnetic fields, you need superconductors, otherwise the magnets would burn up. Thus the liquid helium. To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. Not saying that it's impossible, but if someone does develop room temperature superconductors, we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. I'm reminded of what a physicist once told me: if a physicist says something is impossible, give up all hope. If a physicist says something is uneconomical/impractical/infeasible, then there is still hope because economics change over time. > To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. The big stumbling block in terms of doing this on an (advanced) hobbyist level is the need for liquid helium and rare metals. That's an economic problem, not a physics problem. The helium is a really big deal -- but it's also the one that is most likely to have the economics change in, because the helium shortage is a serious issue and there are lots of people looking into ways to manufacture it efficiently. If they succeed, helium may end up becoming cheap enough to be within the realm of possibility for advanced hobbyists. Also, the only reason that helium is needed at all is because MRI machines require superconductivity to work. It's not impossible that an advance in that field could happen such that you don't need to make things as cold as liquid helium in order to achieve it. > we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines. Hand-held? Why do they have to be hand-held? I'm just talking about ordinary people being able to build one at all, not how portable it would be.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
stickfigure 3y ago
Progress isn't linear. Because we can cure one disease doesn't mean we're on a trajectory to eliminate all diseases. Because today's Camry is faster than last year's Camry doesn't mean we'll be traveling at relativistic speeds anytime soon. That we can correlate thought with incredibly precise and detailed electrochemical phenomenon in your brain should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone with a materialist view of the universe. Your thoughts are, after all, electrochemical phenomenon. The problem - still - is measuring them. The idea that AI is going to somehow read your mind from macro phenomenon like facial expressions and the width of your iris is total bullshit made up by people who want to sell TV shows. We already have this kind of "technology" in the form of polygraphs - and they have the same effectiveness as horoscopes.
- 13years 3y ago
  You possibly have a relevant point if it wasn't for the fact that we are already at a crisis in regards to loss of privacy and its impacts for society. In this respect, any further loss is of significant concern.

rcme 3y ago

This is the plot of the show Person of Interest.

ldhough 3y ago
This was always one of my favorite shows. For (what started as) a police procedural, it was incredibly prescient in many ways.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Yep, terrific show. For the tech person there are a few cringe things but overall it's pretty awewsome and highly recommend.

coding123 3y ago

It is definitely missing the point - capturing of brain waves does not require liquid cooling etc. In fact it's something that could theoretically be squeezed into the next Meta Quest to just "capture". Then it would just be stored until they are ready with an airflow pipeline to pass it into the nn.

JohnFen 3y ago
During the pandemic, I built a device that records "brain waves". Not with the fidelity that would be needed to be a useful medical instrument -- let alone read minds -- but the fact that I, a fairly average geek, can do so using my own equipment and for less than $100 seems meaningful. The device itself is very small, battery-powered (for safety) and requires that you attach electrodes to your scalp.
stickfigure 3y ago
EEG != MRI. Nobody claims to be able to read your thoughts via EEG.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I suspect that the underlying point here is that when EEGs first came around in the 1920s, they were also extremely expensive and not available for common use. But since then, the technologies involved have become so much more accessible and affordable that an electronics hobbyist can build one for themself, maybe even using parts they already have kicking around. MRIs may very well follow a similar trajectory over time. Personally, I don't think this will happen in the very near future -- but history shows us time and time again that it's good to start thinking about these things well before they become practical.
  - stickfigure 3y ago
    That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. MRI machines operate by creating intense magnetic fields. In order to create those magnetic fields, you need superconductors, otherwise the magnets would burn up. Thus the liquid helium. To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. Not saying that it's impossible, but if someone does develop room temperature superconductors, we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. I'm reminded of what a physicist once told me: if a physicist says something is impossible, give up all hope. If a physicist says something is uneconomical/impractical/infeasible, then there is still hope because economics change over time. > To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. The big stumbling block in terms of doing this on an (advanced) hobbyist level is the need for liquid helium and rare metals. That's an economic problem, not a physics problem. The helium is a really big deal -- but it's also the one that is most likely to have the economics change in, because the helium shortage is a serious issue and there are lots of people looking into ways to manufacture it efficiently. If they succeed, helium may end up becoming cheap enough to be within the realm of possibility for advanced hobbyists. Also, the only reason that helium is needed at all is because MRI machines require superconductivity to work. It's not impossible that an advance in that field could happen such that you don't need to make things as cold as liquid helium in order to achieve it. > we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines. Hand-held? Why do they have to be hand-held? I'm just talking about ordinary people being able to build one at all, not how portable it would be.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

stickfigure 3y ago

Progress isn't linear. Because we can cure one disease doesn't mean we're on a trajectory to eliminate all diseases. Because today's Camry is faster than last year's Camry doesn't mean we'll be traveling at relativistic speeds anytime soon. That we can correlate thought with incredibly precise and detailed electrochemical phenomenon in your brain should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone with a materialist view of the universe. Your thoughts are, after all, electrochemical phenomenon. The problem - still - is measuring them. The idea that AI is going to somehow read your mind from macro phenomenon like facial expressions and the width of your iris is total bullshit made up by people who want to sell TV shows. We already have this kind of "technology" in the form of polygraphs - and they have the same effectiveness as horoscopes.

13years 3y ago
You possibly have a relevant point if it wasn't for the fact that we are already at a crisis in regards to loss of privacy and its impacts for society. In this respect, any further loss is of significant concern.