5 ms·

You have to physically climb into an multimillion dollar, 10 ton, liquid-helium-cooled machine and spend hours training it on your brain. We're a long way from

You have to physically climb into an multimillion dollar, 10 ton, liquid-helium-cooled machine and spend hours training it on your brain. We're a long way from the end of private thought, nor is there a roadmap to it. If someone is working on a handheld device that can perform MRI-level scans from across the room, I would be worried about the privacy implications of that technology, not AI.

cma 3y ago
Liquid helium wouldn't be a barrier to being used on key individuals (say leaders of opposition parties in some large authoritarian-ish country). The training would be if it requires cooperation.
13years 3y ago
That is missing the point. It is the trajectory. Machines that can analyze all orthogonal data to understand your behavior is not limited to a single dimension of a MRI machine. Facial expression analysis, all of your online conversations, the existence of your entire life is being monitored and recorded. There will be enough data to perceive beyond the veil into the thoughts of the mind.
- rcme 3y ago
  This is the plot of the show Person of Interest.
  - ldhough 3y ago
    This was always one of my favorite shows. For (what started as) a police procedural, it was incredibly prescient in many ways.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      Yep, terrific show. For the tech person there are a few cringe things but overall it's pretty awewsome and highly recommend.
- coding123 3y ago
  It is definitely missing the point - capturing of brain waves does not require liquid cooling etc. In fact it's something that could theoretically be squeezed into the next Meta Quest to just "capture". Then it would just be stored until they are ready with an airflow pipeline to pass it into the nn.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    During the pandemic, I built a device that records "brain waves". Not with the fidelity that would be needed to be a useful medical instrument -- let alone read minds -- but the fact that I, a fairly average geek, can do so using my own equipment and for less than $100 seems meaningful. The device itself is very small, battery-powered (for safety) and requires that you attach electrodes to your scalp.
  - stickfigure 3y ago
    EEG != MRI. Nobody claims to be able to read your thoughts via EEG.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I suspect that the underlying point here is that when EEGs first came around in the 1920s, they were also extremely expensive and not available for common use. But since then, the technologies involved have become so much more accessible and affordable that an electronics hobbyist can build one for themself, maybe even using parts they already have kicking around. MRIs may very well follow a similar trajectory over time. Personally, I don't think this will happen in the very near future -- but history shows us time and time again that it's good to start thinking about these things well before they become practical.
      - stickfigure 3y ago
        That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. MRI machines operate by creating intense magnetic fields. In order to create those magnetic fields, you need superconductors, otherwise the magnets would burn up. Thus the liquid helium. To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. Not saying that it's impossible, but if someone does develop room temperature superconductors, we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- stickfigure 3y ago
  Progress isn't linear. Because we can cure one disease doesn't mean we're on a trajectory to eliminate all diseases. Because today's Camry is faster than last year's Camry doesn't mean we'll be traveling at relativistic speeds anytime soon. That we can correlate thought with incredibly precise and detailed electrochemical phenomenon in your brain should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone with a materialist view of the universe. Your thoughts are, after all, electrochemical phenomenon. The problem - still - is measuring them. The idea that AI is going to somehow read your mind from macro phenomenon like facial expressions and the width of your iris is total bullshit made up by people who want to sell TV shows. We already have this kind of "technology" in the form of polygraphs - and they have the same effectiveness as horoscopes.
  - 13years 3y ago
    You possibly have a relevant point if it wasn't for the fact that we are already at a crisis in regards to loss of privacy and its impacts for society. In this respect, any further loss is of significant concern.
bookofjoe 3y ago
>Wearable MRI helmet makes brain scans quicker, quieter and crisper https://healthimaging.com/topics/medical-imaging/magnetic-resonance-imaging-mri/wearable-mri-helmet https://healthimaging.com/topics/medical-imaging/magnetic-re... >Auxetics-Inspired Tunable Metamaterials for Magnetic Resonance Imaging https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202109032 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202109032
waboremo 3y ago
You have to lug around a giant bulky laptop and you can't even call people on it! We're a long way from mobile computing. Anyways, even given current limitations, I'd likely side with the very researchers working on such. They explicitly highlight privacy reasons as a serious concern. Going out of their way to highlight misuse through bypassing requirements (cooperation of subject) and intentionally misinterpreting for nefarious reasons.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  One thing that history teaches is that there are always people who will misuse technology for personal gain and to influence or control other people. Always. Human nature hasn't changed.
- porkbeer 3y ago
  Everything gets smaller, computers are no longer "bulky".
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    That was their point.
mock-possum 3y ago
> You have to physically climb into an multimillion dollar, 10 ton, liquid-helium-cooled machine and spend hours training it on your brain the article suggests it could be accomplished with a neurosurgical implant as well - and which, honestly, if I could transcribe my thoughts to review later, I'd love to try that out. In which case, the question of security moves to the matter of accessing the implant.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I'd consider that as well! But only if I had complete control over the implant and what interacts with it, and after Version 3.
anigbrowl 3y ago
You do now. But if you are arrested, you can be compelled to do that, and in a few years EEG skullcaps will probably be sufficient. Honestly, it baffles me that so many people on a site devoted to technology evaluate long-term trends based on current capabilities. Capacity is going to continue to double every ~2 years. If we can't make transistors 2x smaller, we'll find a different architecture to make transistor arrays 2x larger, or [something]. Technical progress compounds. It's often lumpy rather than linear, but it's going to keep imposing an accelerating effect wherever people see profit in applying it.
Gigachad 3y ago
Just wait until we get the musk nuralink chip which will eventually be mandated to prevent terrorism and misinformation.

cma 3y ago

Liquid helium wouldn't be a barrier to being used on key individuals (say leaders of opposition parties in some large authoritarian-ish country). The training would be if it requires cooperation.

13years 3y ago

That is missing the point. It is the trajectory. Machines that can analyze all orthogonal data to understand your behavior is not limited to a single dimension of a MRI machine. Facial expression analysis, all of your online conversations, the existence of your entire life is being monitored and recorded. There will be enough data to perceive beyond the veil into the thoughts of the mind.

rcme 3y ago
This is the plot of the show Person of Interest.
- ldhough 3y ago
  This was always one of my favorite shows. For (what started as) a police procedural, it was incredibly prescient in many ways.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yep, terrific show. For the tech person there are a few cringe things but overall it's pretty awewsome and highly recommend.
coding123 3y ago
It is definitely missing the point - capturing of brain waves does not require liquid cooling etc. In fact it's something that could theoretically be squeezed into the next Meta Quest to just "capture". Then it would just be stored until they are ready with an airflow pipeline to pass it into the nn.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  During the pandemic, I built a device that records "brain waves". Not with the fidelity that would be needed to be a useful medical instrument -- let alone read minds -- but the fact that I, a fairly average geek, can do so using my own equipment and for less than $100 seems meaningful. The device itself is very small, battery-powered (for safety) and requires that you attach electrodes to your scalp.
- stickfigure 3y ago
  EEG != MRI. Nobody claims to be able to read your thoughts via EEG.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    I suspect that the underlying point here is that when EEGs first came around in the 1920s, they were also extremely expensive and not available for common use. But since then, the technologies involved have become so much more accessible and affordable that an electronics hobbyist can build one for themself, maybe even using parts they already have kicking around. MRIs may very well follow a similar trajectory over time. Personally, I don't think this will happen in the very near future -- but history shows us time and time again that it's good to start thinking about these things well before they become practical.
    - stickfigure 3y ago
      That doesn't make sense from a physics perspective. MRI machines operate by creating intense magnetic fields. In order to create those magnetic fields, you need superconductors, otherwise the magnets would burn up. Thus the liquid helium. To make this accessible to the hobbyist, you need a revolution in physics, not informatics or engineering. Not saying that it's impossible, but if someone does develop room temperature superconductors, we're going to be talking about a lot more exciting things than handheld MRI machines.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
stickfigure 3y ago
Progress isn't linear. Because we can cure one disease doesn't mean we're on a trajectory to eliminate all diseases. Because today's Camry is faster than last year's Camry doesn't mean we'll be traveling at relativistic speeds anytime soon. That we can correlate thought with incredibly precise and detailed electrochemical phenomenon in your brain should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone with a materialist view of the universe. Your thoughts are, after all, electrochemical phenomenon. The problem - still - is measuring them. The idea that AI is going to somehow read your mind from macro phenomenon like facial expressions and the width of your iris is total bullshit made up by people who want to sell TV shows. We already have this kind of "technology" in the form of polygraphs - and they have the same effectiveness as horoscopes.
- 13years 3y ago
  You possibly have a relevant point if it wasn't for the fact that we are already at a crisis in regards to loss of privacy and its impacts for society. In this respect, any further loss is of significant concern.

bookofjoe 3y ago

>Wearable MRI helmet makes brain scans quicker, quieter and crisper https://healthimaging.com/topics/medical-imaging/magnetic-resonance-imaging-mri/wearable-mri-helmet https://healthimaging.com/topics/medical-imaging/magnetic-re... >Auxetics-Inspired Tunable Metamaterials for Magnetic Resonance Imaging https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202109032 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202109032

waboremo 3y ago

You have to lug around a giant bulky laptop and you can't even call people on it! We're a long way from mobile computing. Anyways, even given current limitations, I'd likely side with the very researchers working on such. They explicitly highlight privacy reasons as a serious concern. Going out of their way to highlight misuse through bypassing requirements (cooperation of subject) and intentionally misinterpreting for nefarious reasons.

SoftTalker 3y ago
One thing that history teaches is that there are always people who will misuse technology for personal gain and to influence or control other people. Always. Human nature hasn't changed.
porkbeer 3y ago
Everything gets smaller, computers are no longer "bulky".
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  That was their point.

mock-possum 3y ago

> You have to physically climb into an multimillion dollar, 10 ton, liquid-helium-cooled machine and spend hours training it on your brain the article suggests it could be accomplished with a neurosurgical implant as well - and which, honestly, if I could transcribe my thoughts to review later, I'd love to try that out. In which case, the question of security moves to the matter of accessing the implant.

JohnFen 3y ago
I'd consider that as well! But only if I had complete control over the implant and what interacts with it, and after Version 3.

anigbrowl 3y ago

You do now. But if you are arrested, you can be compelled to do that, and in a few years EEG skullcaps will probably be sufficient. Honestly, it baffles me that so many people on a site devoted to technology evaluate long-term trends based on current capabilities. Capacity is going to continue to double every ~2 years. If we can't make transistors 2x smaller, we'll find a different architecture to make transistor arrays 2x larger, or [something]. Technical progress compounds. It's often lumpy rather than linear, but it's going to keep imposing an accelerating effect wherever people see profit in applying it.

Gigachad 3y ago

Just wait until we get the musk nuralink chip which will eventually be mandated to prevent terrorism and misinformation.