5 ms·

why would any floss owe debt to github

by VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

cortesoft 3y ago
Because they can host their software and community for free?
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I think it would be accurate to say that the value GitHub extracts from the OSS community (in the form of its core VCS, network effects, ML models, etc.) substantially outstrips the value returned to the community. Which is not to say that the latter is insignificant!
  - loeg 3y ago
    Is that a qualitative or quantitative argument? Like, would you put numbers to either/both sides of that? I'm not confident Github gets more value than it returns (but you may be right).
    - ZiiS 3y ago
      Github are confident though so...
      - cortesoft 3y ago
        The OSS projects are also confident that they are getting a better deal, though, since they continue to host on Github. Sometimes both sides win.
        woodruffw 3y ago
        I don't think this requires belief in a "better" deal, only a good one (or an acceptable one, given the friction and network effects involved in switching).
        blackoil 3y ago
        Better measure is if GH is getting very high value in return,some competition should be there working at lesser margins (giving more value for OSS)
  - replygirl 3y ago
    i think that would be grossly inaccurate, as the OSS _services_ market alone is worth 3-4x GitHub's valuation at the time of acquisition
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      I don't think the OSS services market (I'm assuming you mean Red Hat, etc.) extracts disproportionate value from GitHub. If anything, I'd expect those companies to pay handsomely for their access -- mine certainly does, and we're primarily open source.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    “Symbiotic” by definition means one depends on the other. I think it’s moot who depends on who more. They both depend on each other in a substantial way. Without the other they would likely adapt, but in a suboptimal way, at least for some time. But I think folks dramatically undervalue what GitHub(Lab) brings, and how expensive it is to host such a system for everyone.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      You said "symbiotic," not me :-) I would describe the relationship as mutualistic: both parties benefit, but not necessarily proportionally. And they don't need to benefit proportionally, but there's also value in highlighting the disproportionality: it behooves the OSS community to remember that extremely valuable ecosystems like GitHub and GitLab derive a significant amount of their value from the continued (and mostly passive) goodwill of the community.
  - tomnipotent 3y ago
    GitHub had ~$1b in revenues in 2022, but I have no doubt that it created many multiples of that in value among its 90m users and communities in the same period. I would wager that the cumulative revenues of all third-party services (CircleCI, Sourcegraph etc.) that are part of the GitHub ecosystem also far exceed GitHub, value and revenues that would unlikely exist without GH (or be at an earlier phase of their evolution). I'd even go so far as to say the value created by pull requests alone exceeds $1bln annually, for the many commercial and open source teams that use it to get work done.
dlisboa 3y ago
They are using Github for hosting, visibility and ease of contribution. A lot of projects would never have been picked up if they were hosted on other platforms.
- tetris11 3y ago
  With the prior understanding that the code uploaded there would remain free and visible for all those who wished to contribute towards something greater than themselves. Microsoft sweeping in at the last minute to undermine all that wasn't exactly an act met with rapturous applause, nor was it expected by anyone who hosted on Github. The users are trapped. They've made a time (and some a financial) investment into Github, and to pack up bow and go elsewhere would kill the communities they grew there. Github owes FOSS everything for the community and buy-in fostered there, and would be nothing without it.
  - pie_flavor 3y ago
    Undermine how?
    - tetris11 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
      - pie_flavor 3y ago
        So in other words not really at all.

why would any floss owe debt to github

cortesoft 3y ago

Because they can host their software and community for free?

woodruffw 3y ago
I think it would be accurate to say that the value GitHub extracts from the OSS community (in the form of its core VCS, network effects, ML models, etc.) substantially outstrips the value returned to the community. Which is not to say that the latter is insignificant!
- loeg 3y ago
  Is that a qualitative or quantitative argument? Like, would you put numbers to either/both sides of that? I'm not confident Github gets more value than it returns (but you may be right).
  - ZiiS 3y ago
    Github are confident though so...
    - cortesoft 3y ago
      The OSS projects are also confident that they are getting a better deal, though, since they continue to host on Github. Sometimes both sides win.
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        I don't think this requires belief in a "better" deal, only a good one (or an acceptable one, given the friction and network effects involved in switching).
        blackoil 3y ago
        Better measure is if GH is getting very high value in return,some competition should be there working at lesser margins (giving more value for OSS)
- replygirl 3y ago
  i think that would be grossly inaccurate, as the OSS _services_ market alone is worth 3-4x GitHub's valuation at the time of acquisition
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I don't think the OSS services market (I'm assuming you mean Red Hat, etc.) extracts disproportionate value from GitHub. If anything, I'd expect those companies to pay handsomely for their access -- mine certainly does, and we're primarily open source.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  “Symbiotic” by definition means one depends on the other. I think it’s moot who depends on who more. They both depend on each other in a substantial way. Without the other they would likely adapt, but in a suboptimal way, at least for some time. But I think folks dramatically undervalue what GitHub(Lab) brings, and how expensive it is to host such a system for everyone.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    You said "symbiotic," not me :-) I would describe the relationship as mutualistic: both parties benefit, but not necessarily proportionally. And they don't need to benefit proportionally, but there's also value in highlighting the disproportionality: it behooves the OSS community to remember that extremely valuable ecosystems like GitHub and GitLab derive a significant amount of their value from the continued (and mostly passive) goodwill of the community.
- tomnipotent 3y ago
  GitHub had ~$1b in revenues in 2022, but I have no doubt that it created many multiples of that in value among its 90m users and communities in the same period. I would wager that the cumulative revenues of all third-party services (CircleCI, Sourcegraph etc.) that are part of the GitHub ecosystem also far exceed GitHub, value and revenues that would unlikely exist without GH (or be at an earlier phase of their evolution). I'd even go so far as to say the value created by pull requests alone exceeds $1bln annually, for the many commercial and open source teams that use it to get work done.

dlisboa 3y ago

They are using Github for hosting, visibility and ease of contribution. A lot of projects would never have been picked up if they were hosted on other platforms.

tetris11 3y ago
With the prior understanding that the code uploaded there would remain free and visible for all those who wished to contribute towards something greater than themselves. Microsoft sweeping in at the last minute to undermine all that wasn't exactly an act met with rapturous applause, nor was it expected by anyone who hosted on Github. The users are trapped. They've made a time (and some a financial) investment into Github, and to pack up bow and go elsewhere would kill the communities they grew there. Github owes FOSS everything for the community and buy-in fostered there, and would be nothing without it.
- pie_flavor 3y ago
  Undermine how?
  - tetris11 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
    - pie_flavor 3y ago
      So in other words not really at all.