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User expectations have changed in this regard. If you don't auto update users will never update. Updating your computer or apps isn't a thing anyone thinks abou

by Spivak 4y ago

User expectations have changed in this regard. If you don't auto update users will never update. Updating your computer or apps isn't a thing anyone thinks about anymore. Don't do it like the OP clearly, and it's really sad that desktops can't provide an experience like mobile where updates are platform managed but you still gotta do it.

computerfriend 4y ago
I use a package manager. It's normal, common even. My "user expectation" is that applications don't do this.
ghaff 4y ago
Then they don't update. People rarely updating seems a lesser issue than forcing updates on everyone--especially at the application layer.
dathinab 4y ago
yesn't there needs to be some auto updater but you don't necessary need to have some or in other words you normally want to integrate into existing update services, e.g. then package manager on linux. And if it then doesn't get updated e.g. because people don't update their system at all then that's their choice and problem IMHO. Just flag a warning/error once the API to your service changed too much or similar.
- Spivak 4y ago
  If you're on a Linux distro then you have better options (package repository or /a Flatpak repo) and a user-base that knows to run updates. If you're not on a Linux distro then you have neither hence the auto-updaters.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    You mean no options except the Microsoft/Apple app store. And I think you also can hook into the Microsoft updated without being on the app store but not completely sure. And you can just use a existing auto updater library or similar instead of implementing it yourself ....
fsniper 4y ago
user expectation was never to update regularly. User expectation is a working application to continue function the same way until a change is required by the user. Users should not have to update, applications should not auto-update unless asked specifically. An update should be voluntary, not mandatory. I hate finding a different application each time I open the same application. Particularly if it's a feature change or worse, a whole UI change. This applies to desktop apps, saas apps, appliances, cars..
- EvanAnderson 4y ago
  > user expectation was never to update regularly. User expectation is a working application to continue function the same way until a change is required by the user. It does worry me that this may not be true anymore. How many years of the “slowly boiling frog” are necessary, with people growing increasing dependent on software they can’t control running only on others’ computers, before they forget what having locally-controlled software was like? How about young people or those who came to computers late in life who have known nothing different? I’m increasingly resigned to the fact that the industry will wipe away this past. Old man “yells at cloud”, indeed.
  - bombolo 4y ago
    You can just install debian today.
- mavhc 4y ago
  Should auto updates apply to security fixes?
  - fsniper 4y ago
    Yes I believe so. Unless I particularly ask for it, even security updates should be kept manual. I hate security updates that has zero impact on my use case to be applied automatically. Like a fix for amd64 arch applied for an app currently only running on arm64.
biinjo 4y ago
> it's really sad that desktops can't provide an experience like mobile where updates are platform managed What do you mean? There's an App Store for Mac users and there's the Windows Store for Windows users. I bet Linux has some similar offerings as well that I'm not aware of. The services are there but developers have to jump through a bunch of (compliance) hoops (for good reasons) before they're accepted and it's easier to just let users download a ZIP from your landing page.
- Spivak 4y ago
  I would love if there was an "open" service that any app on the system could use to replace bespoke auto-updaters without having to be distributed via the store. Just like, "hi I'm $app, "run myapp.exe -check" to see if I have an update, and when either the user or the system decides to do the update run myapp.exe -update" And then it's up to the OS that has more complete information to make decisions on when (i.e. don't check for updates on power saving mode).
  - gizmo686 4y ago
    That still requires every app to have a bespoke updater. You just pushed the invocation to the OS. A better solution would be for the system package manager to allow programs to add their own update servers. Assuming the developers package their programs the same way the system does, this allows you to use the exact same update logic. Most linuxes allow this. Add a third party repository to you sources, and you can update their software with the rest of your system. Ideally, you would have a more locked down version, where you can restrict the permissions of a given repository; although I'm not aware of anyone that has done that yet
- bombolo 4y ago
  > I bet Linux has some similar offerings as well that I'm not aware of. For decades before there was an app store and a windows store, yes.
EvanAnderson 4y ago
> User expectations have changed in this regard. I feel like developer / publisher expectations are what changed, not the users’. The allure of telemetry (even if it’s actually used for telemetry, not for nefarious spying and data collection) is just too much for most developers or publishers to resist. As somebody else said, these 5 minute update “pings” seem less, to me, about updates and more about near-realtime usage monitoring.

by Spivak 4y ago

computerfriend 4y ago

I use a package manager. It's normal, common even. My "user expectation" is that applications don't do this.

ghaff 4y ago

Then they don't update. People rarely updating seems a lesser issue than forcing updates on everyone--especially at the application layer.

dathinab 4y ago

yesn't there needs to be some auto updater but you don't necessary need to have some or in other words you normally want to integrate into existing update services, e.g. then package manager on linux. And if it then doesn't get updated e.g. because people don't update their system at all then that's their choice and problem IMHO. Just flag a warning/error once the API to your service changed too much or similar.

Spivak 4y ago
If you're on a Linux distro then you have better options (package repository or /a Flatpak repo) and a user-base that knows to run updates. If you're not on a Linux distro then you have neither hence the auto-updaters.
- dathinab 4y ago
  You mean no options except the Microsoft/Apple app store. And I think you also can hook into the Microsoft updated without being on the app store but not completely sure. And you can just use a existing auto updater library or similar instead of implementing it yourself ....

fsniper 4y ago

user expectation was never to update regularly. User expectation is a working application to continue function the same way until a change is required by the user. Users should not have to update, applications should not auto-update unless asked specifically. An update should be voluntary, not mandatory. I hate finding a different application each time I open the same application. Particularly if it's a feature change or worse, a whole UI change. This applies to desktop apps, saas apps, appliances, cars..

EvanAnderson 4y ago
> user expectation was never to update regularly. User expectation is a working application to continue function the same way until a change is required by the user. It does worry me that this may not be true anymore. How many years of the “slowly boiling frog” are necessary, with people growing increasing dependent on software they can’t control running only on others’ computers, before they forget what having locally-controlled software was like? How about young people or those who came to computers late in life who have known nothing different? I’m increasingly resigned to the fact that the industry will wipe away this past. Old man “yells at cloud”, indeed.
- bombolo 4y ago
  You can just install debian today.
mavhc 4y ago
Should auto updates apply to security fixes?
- fsniper 4y ago
  Yes I believe so. Unless I particularly ask for it, even security updates should be kept manual. I hate security updates that has zero impact on my use case to be applied automatically. Like a fix for amd64 arch applied for an app currently only running on arm64.

biinjo 4y ago

> it's really sad that desktops can't provide an experience like mobile where updates are platform managed What do you mean? There's an App Store for Mac users and there's the Windows Store for Windows users. I bet Linux has some similar offerings as well that I'm not aware of. The services are there but developers have to jump through a bunch of (compliance) hoops (for good reasons) before they're accepted and it's easier to just let users download a ZIP from your landing page.

Spivak 4y ago
I would love if there was an "open" service that any app on the system could use to replace bespoke auto-updaters without having to be distributed via the store. Just like, "hi I'm $app, "run myapp.exe -check" to see if I have an update, and when either the user or the system decides to do the update run myapp.exe -update" And then it's up to the OS that has more complete information to make decisions on when (i.e. don't check for updates on power saving mode).
- gizmo686 4y ago
  That still requires every app to have a bespoke updater. You just pushed the invocation to the OS. A better solution would be for the system package manager to allow programs to add their own update servers. Assuming the developers package their programs the same way the system does, this allows you to use the exact same update logic. Most linuxes allow this. Add a third party repository to you sources, and you can update their software with the rest of your system. Ideally, you would have a more locked down version, where you can restrict the permissions of a given repository; although I'm not aware of anyone that has done that yet
bombolo 4y ago
> I bet Linux has some similar offerings as well that I'm not aware of. For decades before there was an app store and a windows store, yes.

EvanAnderson 4y ago

> User expectations have changed in this regard. I feel like developer / publisher expectations are what changed, not the users’. The allure of telemetry (even if it’s actually used for telemetry, not for nefarious spying and data collection) is just too much for most developers or publishers to resist. As somebody else said, these 5 minute update “pings” seem less, to me, about updates and more about near-realtime usage monitoring.