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You could make similar arguments against just about any mature network protocol (see the recent HN post about regrets in TCP/IP's design). Luckily we have plent

You could make similar arguments against just about any mature network protocol (see the recent HN post about regrets in TCP/IP's design). Luckily we have plenty of choice, and there are bridges between the open solutions. The fact is that XMPP has been, and still is, happily deployed at scale in various scenarios. You're welcome to your opinions, but they are just that. Disclaimer: I'm a full-time XMPP developer and executive director of the XMPP Standards Foundation.

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arp242 3y ago
> The fact is that XMPP has been, and still is, happily deployed at scale in various scenarios. And this argument, also, can be applied to almost any mature technology. Remember, there are nuclear reactors in use today that are running happily and safely on PDP-11s programmed in PDP-11 assembly. Granted, the comment you replied to was not particularly constructive, but it does mirror my own experiences and difficulties with XMPP in the past. This kind of handwavy dismissal does not exactly inspire confidence the situation has improved.
- MattJ100 3y ago
  I get your point about PDP-11's, but I'm not sure how it applies, practically. My family communicate with each other via XMPP, but I doubt they would be happy to use a PDP-11 for their daily computing :) My comment was not intended as an empty dismissal of all XMPP criticism. I'm happy to discuss and debate concrete criticisms of XMPP (contact info in my profile). But the parent post did not provide any such, only what sounds like a negative subjective experience whenever they last encountered XMPP. I don't think one person's opinion ought to decide if something should "die and stay dead", when there are so many projects and products built around it, and people using it daily to solve actual problems. XMPP has evolved massively over the past 20 years. Is it perfect? No (show me something that is!). Do we continue to improve it? Constantly.
lmm 3y ago
I've never seen a product/system that used XMPP as XMPP (i.e. in extensible form) beat one that didn't. Even systems that should have been a slam-dunk success, like Jabber (there was huge demand for an open-source messenger at the time). And every single big-name successful "built on XMPP" system has ended up switching to a closed model where they control both ends.

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arp242 3y ago

> The fact is that XMPP has been, and still is, happily deployed at scale in various scenarios. And this argument, also, can be applied to almost any mature technology. Remember, there are nuclear reactors in use today that are running happily and safely on PDP-11s programmed in PDP-11 assembly. Granted, the comment you replied to was not particularly constructive, but it does mirror my own experiences and difficulties with XMPP in the past. This kind of handwavy dismissal does not exactly inspire confidence the situation has improved.

MattJ100 3y ago
I get your point about PDP-11's, but I'm not sure how it applies, practically. My family communicate with each other via XMPP, but I doubt they would be happy to use a PDP-11 for their daily computing :) My comment was not intended as an empty dismissal of all XMPP criticism. I'm happy to discuss and debate concrete criticisms of XMPP (contact info in my profile). But the parent post did not provide any such, only what sounds like a negative subjective experience whenever they last encountered XMPP. I don't think one person's opinion ought to decide if something should "die and stay dead", when there are so many projects and products built around it, and people using it daily to solve actual problems. XMPP has evolved massively over the past 20 years. Is it perfect? No (show me something that is!). Do we continue to improve it? Constantly.

lmm 3y ago

I've never seen a product/system that used XMPP as XMPP (i.e. in extensible form) beat one that didn't. Even systems that should have been a slam-dunk success, like Jabber (there was huge demand for an open-source messenger at the time). And every single big-name successful "built on XMPP" system has ended up switching to a closed model where they control both ends.