6 ms·

No "at least" about it. China has horrible carbon emission intensity of production. More than twice as bad as countries like USA, India, Japan, and more than 3

No "at least" about it. China has horrible carbon emission intensity of production. More than twice as bad as countries like USA, India, Japan, and more than 3 times as bad as cleaner ones. Not to mention all the other environmental problems they have.

mandmandam 3y ago
Now do per capita.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  I will: per-capita is a terrible and compromised metric to use because it bears no relationship to the environmental cost of carbon, and it creates perverse incentives for regimes to maximize population and reduce living standards in order to maintain and increase their carbon emissions. China's per-capita emissions aren't even great. Worse than many advanced economies.
  - mandmandam 3y ago
    Didn't think I really needed to spell this out... It's hypocritical of Americans to complain about China's emissions, while spewing almost twice as much per person. It's disingenuous to complain that per capita emissions are irrelevant, as if every 8 Americans deserve to emit as much as fourteen Chinese people. That's the actual ratio. And all this bluster, while China exports nearly twice as many manufactured goods. If we're talking about countries environmental cost, then we'll have to talk about America's role sabotaging climate accords, or selling the world on PFAs, or the petrodollar, or our relationship with dictators that have lots of oil, or invading countries and then securing the oil fields within days, and so on, etc. Let's try to keep our feet on the ground here, even if we've no leg to stand on.
    - throwawaylinux 3y ago
      That didn't address what I wrote even if I was American, which I'm not. While we're off on this wild tangent though, do you feel the same way about the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Do you think Barack Obama, Al Gore, Bill Gates, et al have "no right to complain" about emissions generated by us commoners? Would that be a reasonable response for everybody, whenever a politician or elite says emissions need to be reduced? Stamp their feet and say no, because we deserve to emit as much as you do?
    - foverzar 3y ago
      I'll upvote this. So tired of western folk (as usual) being so full of themselves only because they had pushed almost all of the nasty production outside of their countries and get to flex stats how supposedly good they are. How about instead we maybe count individual carbon footprint by the consumption? (Oops)
xtian 3y ago
What about cumulative emissions?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  What about them?
  - xtian 3y ago
    Everyone who talks about China’s “horrible” emissions always avoids referencing cumulative, per capita, or, even worse, cumulative per capita numbers because they really interfere with the desired narrative.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      The desired narrative to me, is to avoid cooking this planet. If you want to cook it because it's otherwise unfair to China, fine, it's your funeral too.
      - xtian 3y ago
        I’m no longer moved by the linguistic arms race to describe the outputs of unproven computer models in ever more extreme terms. Are you educated on Chinese policy in this area?
      - foverzar 3y ago
        It's not about China. You don't even realize how you look, do you? Do you understand that everyone around the world remembers how western countries pioneered globalization and pushed all the nasty production to third-world countries, so that they don't get their white hand dirty? You don't get to greenwash yourselves just because stuff you consume gets produced somewhere else, got it? But hey, I have an idea! If you insist on being no less virtuous then Mother Teresa, how about this proposal: we shut down all of the outsourced production for US and Europe. Just think of it, this would be a huge optimization: it's the smallest part of the world that consumes the most. And people there are clearly eager to be heroes and show us how to take care of climate - let's help them finally put their money where their mouth is. It's a win-win!
elihu 3y ago
Production emissions are dwarfed by lifetime CO2 emissions of fossil fuel vehicles, which need to be off the road as soon as possible. The quickest way to do that is with small, cheap cars that don't require bottleneck resources like cobalt and nickel. I wish we had countries with efficient, clean production practices building small EVs using scalable production techniques like China, but give the choice between BYD's approach and that of your average US automakers, I think BYD's approach is better. (Maybe South Korea is a contender for being a legitimate competitor to China. I don't think they've done much with LFP batteries as far as I know, but it looks like LG chem is working on LFP plants though so maybe that'll change.)
- Reason077 3y ago
  It’s likely that the majority of EV production globally will shift to LFP in the coming years. Mostly due to cost but also the significant lifecycle and safety advantages of LFP. NMC will remain dominant in high end, performance models but LFP will be the mainstream.
  - elihu 3y ago
    I wouldn't be that surprised if LFP batteries were approaching half of all EV battery production now. I agree LFPs are currently the right chemistry for mass-production vehicles. NMC is for luxury cars, or use cases with special requirements (e.g. better cold weather performance). I expect LFP will eventually be superseded by some other technology. Though it's possible they'le be superseded by something that's a direct improvement on LFP rather than something completely new.
    - Reason077 3y ago
      LFP market share was reported to be 31% by the end of 2022 (up from 11% in 2020), with BYD and Tesla accounting for 68% of all LFP vehicles sold globally. https://insideevs.com/news/628303/ev-battery-lfp-share-september2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/628303/ev-battery-lfp-share-septe...
- throwawaylinux 3y ago

mandmandam 3y ago

Now do per capita.

throwawaylinux 3y ago
I will: per-capita is a terrible and compromised metric to use because it bears no relationship to the environmental cost of carbon, and it creates perverse incentives for regimes to maximize population and reduce living standards in order to maintain and increase their carbon emissions. China's per-capita emissions aren't even great. Worse than many advanced economies.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  Didn't think I really needed to spell this out... It's hypocritical of Americans to complain about China's emissions, while spewing almost twice as much per person. It's disingenuous to complain that per capita emissions are irrelevant, as if every 8 Americans deserve to emit as much as fourteen Chinese people. That's the actual ratio. And all this bluster, while China exports nearly twice as many manufactured goods. If we're talking about countries environmental cost, then we'll have to talk about America's role sabotaging climate accords, or selling the world on PFAs, or the petrodollar, or our relationship with dictators that have lots of oil, or invading countries and then securing the oil fields within days, and so on, etc. Let's try to keep our feet on the ground here, even if we've no leg to stand on.
  - throwawaylinux 3y ago
    That didn't address what I wrote even if I was American, which I'm not. While we're off on this wild tangent though, do you feel the same way about the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Do you think Barack Obama, Al Gore, Bill Gates, et al have "no right to complain" about emissions generated by us commoners? Would that be a reasonable response for everybody, whenever a politician or elite says emissions need to be reduced? Stamp their feet and say no, because we deserve to emit as much as you do?
  - foverzar 3y ago
    I'll upvote this. So tired of western folk (as usual) being so full of themselves only because they had pushed almost all of the nasty production outside of their countries and get to flex stats how supposedly good they are. How about instead we maybe count individual carbon footprint by the consumption? (Oops)

xtian 3y ago

What about cumulative emissions?

actionfromafar 3y ago
What about them?
- xtian 3y ago
  Everyone who talks about China’s “horrible” emissions always avoids referencing cumulative, per capita, or, even worse, cumulative per capita numbers because they really interfere with the desired narrative.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    The desired narrative to me, is to avoid cooking this planet. If you want to cook it because it's otherwise unfair to China, fine, it's your funeral too.
    - xtian 3y ago
      I’m no longer moved by the linguistic arms race to describe the outputs of unproven computer models in ever more extreme terms. Are you educated on Chinese policy in this area?
    - foverzar 3y ago
      It's not about China. You don't even realize how you look, do you? Do you understand that everyone around the world remembers how western countries pioneered globalization and pushed all the nasty production to third-world countries, so that they don't get their white hand dirty? You don't get to greenwash yourselves just because stuff you consume gets produced somewhere else, got it? But hey, I have an idea! If you insist on being no less virtuous then Mother Teresa, how about this proposal: we shut down all of the outsourced production for US and Europe. Just think of it, this would be a huge optimization: it's the smallest part of the world that consumes the most. And people there are clearly eager to be heroes and show us how to take care of climate - let's help them finally put their money where their mouth is. It's a win-win!

elihu 3y ago

Production emissions are dwarfed by lifetime CO2 emissions of fossil fuel vehicles, which need to be off the road as soon as possible. The quickest way to do that is with small, cheap cars that don't require bottleneck resources like cobalt and nickel. I wish we had countries with efficient, clean production practices building small EVs using scalable production techniques like China, but give the choice between BYD's approach and that of your average US automakers, I think BYD's approach is better. (Maybe South Korea is a contender for being a legitimate competitor to China. I don't think they've done much with LFP batteries as far as I know, but it looks like LG chem is working on LFP plants though so maybe that'll change.)

Reason077 3y ago
It’s likely that the majority of EV production globally will shift to LFP in the coming years. Mostly due to cost but also the significant lifecycle and safety advantages of LFP. NMC will remain dominant in high end, performance models but LFP will be the mainstream.
- elihu 3y ago
  I wouldn't be that surprised if LFP batteries were approaching half of all EV battery production now. I agree LFPs are currently the right chemistry for mass-production vehicles. NMC is for luxury cars, or use cases with special requirements (e.g. better cold weather performance). I expect LFP will eventually be superseded by some other technology. Though it's possible they'le be superseded by something that's a direct improvement on LFP rather than something completely new.
  - Reason077 3y ago
    LFP market share was reported to be 31% by the end of 2022 (up from 11% in 2020), with BYD and Tesla accounting for 68% of all LFP vehicles sold globally. https://insideevs.com/news/628303/ev-battery-lfp-share-september2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/628303/ev-battery-lfp-share-septe...
throwawaylinux 3y ago