8 ms·

Ask HN: Fired for Using Firefox

74 points by tamarind8 3y ago

I'm here asking for advice, as I'm not sure what to do next. I got a job 3 weeks ago, as a front-end developer. Obviously still on probation. Just got terminated today, reason given was I do not know how to use tools. They say the fact that I use Firefox as my preferred browser means that I'll most likely be terrible at cross-browser testing. That the fact that I do not use chrome dev tools is a red flag. Or the fact that I said I prefer using text editors (vs code) over full blown IDES (visual studio). So my question is, is it fair to terminate a new developer because they use Firefox?

stefanos82 3y ago
If they have given you this reasoning in written, get yourself a lawyer. Also I firmly believe you dodged a bullet here, sounds like a very toxic environment that give no development freedom.
- WantonQuantum 3y ago
  Seconded - you don't want to work there.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  All they said in writing was "unfortunately I do not meet performance standards". For the first two weeks they were happy to let me just learn angular and the app. They gave me a CSS ticket to fix one page last week, and I actually fixed all the pages! But I did it using Firefox and a text editor (vs code) so they are having none of that! > get yourself a lawyer Very seriously considering this.
  - jasonkester 3y ago
    I bet if you read this back to yourself, you’ll understand why they let you go. And hopefully you’ll approach your next gig differently. From their perspective, they hired a guy, and it took him 3 weeks to close a single CSS ticket. If you were the company, what would you do? It sounds like you may be new, so chalk it up to miscommunication. But next time, spend the first day “learning” while closing a few real tickets. Make sure you’re up to speed with the rest of the team in your first week, so there’s no question of your value.
    - stefanos82 3y ago
      Read carefully what OP wrote please...not only the CSS issue was fixed, it was also done on ALL pages as well AND the CSS ticket was given the third week.
      - tamarind8 3y ago
        Thanks. I was actually still being asked if the CSS had been done this morning before the firing. Despite the fact that it had actually been moved as done on the board, me saying I'd finished with it in a slack DM with him yesterday, and me saying it was done in yesterdays sprint meeting. I guess when someone-one has already made up their mind, any kind of input gets automatically, and subconsciously deleted from their minds.
    - tamarind8 3y ago
      I actually had to insist on being given that ticket. My boss was actually happy to let me spend more time learning angular and setting up my dev env. Think about that. But the moment I stepped up to, and embraced the challenge, everything changed. Maybe someone whispered some bad things about me? I will never know... What I'd do differently if I wanted to work there? Keep my mouth shut, and not say anything about my views and concerns. Just wait to be given orders and follow them, never questioning anything.
      - jasonkester 3y ago
        Hey, man. I'm only reading what you wrote and responding to the impression it left. Please try to take it constructively. Imagine your boss was actually happy with you not delivering anything those first few weeks. Would he have let you go? I've watched this exact situation play out too many times now to miss the signs. A new person joins the team, spends a few weeks familiarizing and reporting as much in the standups. Manager is encouraging the whole time. Then one day, New Person is no longer with the company, reach out to me if anybody has any concerns. Every time, it's the new person not catching the signals that they should have been self starting and delivering all that time. I'm not trying to say that it's fair. Just pointing out that it happens.
ggeorgovassilis 3y ago
> So my question is, is it fair to terminate a new developer because they use Firefox? I'm sorry for that bad experience. If you were instructed to change tools or given a warning prior to termination, the termination might be justified on grounds of insubordination, but not on merit. Either way, that place you just left carries a bigger red flag than you. > I'm not sure what to do next. Keep learning, get more experience, apply to the next job.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  Thank you. There was no warning. In-fact, every dev is free to setup their own local environment in whichever way the choose. There is no standard way to setup anything, and one of my goals was to setup my env and document everything step by step on the org's wiki. So that atleast we'd have one official, approved way of doing things. What is most shocking about it all, is they have an Angular app, which they are thinking of moving to React, which is why they hired me. On the basis of my React and JS skills. They trusted me to get up-to speed on Angular, but dismissed me because I use Firefox? Don't want the job back, I'm just feeling that people should not feel free to d*ck others around like this. How will I explain all this on my resume?
  - ggeorgovassilis 3y ago
    > How will I explain all this on my resume? You don't. Omit that job.
    - tamarind8 3y ago
      The time gaps between jobs?
      - DamonHD 3y ago
        There have been times when I have strategically done my CV in yyyy or yyyy-mm dates to make such gaps less obvious. But if pressed you can honestly say that you have no idea what the problem was, you performed your requests, and you were given no warning. In any case that was beyond your control and didn't turn into a real job.
not_your_vase 3y ago
If you are actually productive with your method, then I would advice you to be happy that you dodged a bullet, and it only cost you 3 weeks. Go for another company, and don't chase this one. If, however, they have a point, try to learn some productivity tools to be more efficient before going for the job. In any case, don't think too much about this company, it will just distract you.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  What I did say was that I rarely use browser debuggers, because I've just never felt the need to. The console.log and a good mental image of what the code is doing has got me this far. I asked my boss, that as a senior dev with over 15 proven experience, he should not stress to much about HOW I do it, just WHAT I deliver, and WHEN it is delivered. I guess that was asking for to much? Or being insubordinate? Anyways, I was told my skills, abilities or personality was not the problem, am just not "a good fit". Why? Because I like firefox, and using text editors (vs code) over IDES (visual studio).
  - mikro2nd 3y ago
    It sounds like the tooling was just being used as an excuse, that they'd decided to fire you regardless for reasons that they wouldn't want to articulate because they'd be grounds for legal action. Just guessing, of course, but don't believe ~everything~ anything you've been told. I believe you've already made good choices in this: take a deep breath and move on, having "dodged a bullet" as others have commented. Good luck with your next gig.
    - tamarind8 3y ago
      You get it. I will not be surprised at all if the move to React never happened, and everything is still on angular8 one year from now. So why hire me in the fast place? Because they think they can just hire and then fire someone on a whim? If I don't do something about this, they will do it to someone else.
      - 3y ago
stefanos82 3y ago
Another hypothetical scenario that could be taken into consideration is the following: Before hiring you they had either interviewed another candidate that matched their needs and was more experienced than you, or expected a friend of theirs to join their team, but did not reply back for a while and due to their tight schedule, they had to hire someone urgently, thus leading to your hiring. After hiring you, between the end of second and third week, this aforementioned candidate or friend replied and said "I'm available now" and decided to let you go; the only thing that had to do is to figure out a way to use as an excuse to fire you. I have been there myself and I know first hand how it feels; therefore I will repeat myself: discuss the matter with a lawyer and feel happy that you dodged a bazooka, not just a bullet!
- tamarind8 3y ago
  Thank you, my friend. A year from now I'll be happy I dodged a bullet, and I still have to do something about this injustice I'm feeling now.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- croisillon 3y ago
  A friend of mine was hired as a back-end dev. When he started they told him they'd rather need some urgent front-end tasks to be done, which was clearly not his strength and he never lied about it, so he gave his best shot. Then on the last day of his probation month they told him he was not good enough and let him go. I'm thinking this might have been a similar case...
frank_bb 3y ago
[dead]
denkmoon 3y ago
I care that my devs are solving problems effectively and not creating further or future problems. Their tools are their choice. You dodged a bullet. Consider letting others know via glassdoor.
bobse 3y ago
Sue them.
mavu 3y ago
Probably lucky that you noticed what a terrible company that was so early and quickly.
blablabla123 3y ago
I mean Firefox used to be not very practical for Web development but I think that was around 2015. Also I've seen much more frontend developers moving away from complex IDEs. Bad for the financial hit, but for learning it's probably better to work somewhere else...
haspok 3y ago
Yes, it is fair to fire you for _any reason_ during the probation period (ok, maybe not for your ethnicity or religious reasons etc - but this is not what has happened here). It is also fair for you to leave on a short notice during the probation period for no reason. It is a two way street. Don't try to read more into this situation than what it really is. Either party did not like the other, no big deal, this happens. Much better to leave early than to suffer through a longer period for nothing. Enjoy Firefox and VS Code - I'm sure there are plenty of other companies that will allow you to use whatever tools you like for development.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  I think you are missing the point. That one month gap in my resume? Very hard to explain. "So, they let you go why...." It is absolutely unfair, for someone to hire and fire you "for any reason". We are not slaves. Do your due diligence when hiring, and when firing. Is that too much to ask?
  - haspok 3y ago
    Sorry mate, we can argue about who is really missing the point here :) The one month gap in your resume nobody cares about. Seriously, don't be so insecure! How do I know this - I just had a massive 8 months gap in mine, and still managed to land a contract in a new country which I was not yet living in, the language of which I don't really speak (yet), and hired in spite of my non-existing skills in FE dev for a full stack job. If I can do it like this, anyone can do it. > Do your due diligence when hiring, and when firing. Is that too much to ask? Yes, absolutely too much. If companies can't fire people, they will be much more reluctant to hire too, it's that simple. They will avoid hiring new people in any way they cna, have 2x more rounds of leetcode shite, and will fire you during probation anyway. You are not a slave, exactly because you can also leave any time. In fact, you should have done it before they fired you. The signs were clearly on the wall.
    - tamarind8 3y ago
      > The one month gap in your resume nobody cares about. Seriously, don't be so insecure! How do I know this - I just had a massive 8 months gap in mine, and still managed to land a contract Thanks mate. I'm happy for you. > In fact, you should have done it before they fired you. The signs were clearly on the wall. Honestly... not really. One day its "take all the time you need", the next it's "why are you using Firefox? That is a red flag on you, and please leave right now".
quickthrower2 3y ago
No, they are clearly idiots. Who are against any kind of diversity. Sorry they wasted your time, and hopefully you can find a decent place to work.
3ds 3y ago
No, it is not fair, nor is it correct. The professional response is, that for the most part it is a matter of preference what tools you use and as long as you are proficient with them and you get the work done, it is more important that you can use tools you are comfortable with and accustomed to, because you will be faster. Nowadays there are few differences between firefox web developer tools and chrome's tools. IDEs can be powerful tools. To me it seems that in some programming languages they are the default, in others not so much. I don't see much IDE usage in frontend development. But it could be useful when writing TypeScript maybe? Anyhow. You did absolutely nothing wrong.
squarefoot 3y ago
You should be thankful that it took you only 3 weeks to realize how rotten was that workplace.
Popcorn3865 3y ago
Fair? No. Termination on grounds of things that _might_ happen is not fair at all. I suspect there's something else going on, as this reasoning seems spurious. Whatever the reasoning, this type of behaviour by an employer is a red flag in itself.
nbittich 3y ago
I don't know if what you say is true but this looks just like an excuse for them to get rid of you. Not a great place to work anyway.
silisili 3y ago
Is it fair? Sure. Is it fair to you? Probably not. It sounds like they were looking for a 'fit', and it wasn't you. That said, these types of things should have been settled during the interview and onboarding processes. If it wasn't, it sounds like a really poor company to work for anyways. Keep your head up, and hope the next one is better.
kilinkis 3y ago
seems like they are the red flag
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
traveler01 3y ago
Firing you for using the only browser that actually makes a decent implementation of web standards? Phew you dodged a bullet there, they are a sh* company for sure. Hope you find a suitable company soon!
mrfumier 3y ago
Legally in most countries, it's up to the company to provide you with the tools to work, therefore it's up to company to choose these tools. In other words, if they provide you with a PC on Windows 7 with Notepad as an editor, you shouldn't (and you probably don't have the admin rights anyway) to install anything else on company's property. In reality, it's usually in the interest of the company to allow you to work with tools on which you are the most productive. But they don't have to.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  I agree. This company provided a windows box, but did not provide any set any proper guidelines or specifications on how it should look. All the knowledge about that was locked into different developers heads. I was trying to fix that, by documenting everything in the wiki but I guess I use Firefox, so red flag, I've got to go.
zamnos 3y ago
Based on what you've told us here, that's a bit weird. Thing is, we only have half the story. We don't know what else happened in the meeting you were terminated, or got said or happened in the 3 weeks, we don't know what you did and didn't ask your mentor, we don't know how many roadblocks you hit because you're using Firefox and VS Code, we weren't there for the conversation there was about you using Chrome and Visual Studio, or more importantly, how you reacted. We don't know how good you actually are with Firefox and VS Code. If you're struggling to use Firefox and/or can't use VS code very well, which means no one else on the team can help you, and you actively discourage their efforts to help you, I could see that being a red flag. That said, there are a few quotes elsewhere in this thread that give me an inkling that it's not about Firefox and VS code. > So my question is, is it fair to terminate a new developer because they use Firefox? Why is fair relevant? Fair is for board games with your family. This is the real world, and people in power can be as petty as they want. There's no principal of the tech industry to complain to, very little protection (assuming you're in the US, in an at-will state). There's no review board that says yup, that was unfair unless you're a protected class, and was constructively fired for being black/gay/old. > They gave me a CSS ticket to fix one page last week, and I actually fixed all the pages! I mean, it's important to get all of the pages, so it is important that you got all of them, but if you're telling us that you got all the pages, it sounds like there was a meeting that contained additional feedback for you, about how you did/finished the ticket and your attitude about it, and that was your defense in that meeting. Don't get me wrong, you sound hungry for it by pushing your boss to get the ticket - which is a good thing! (In certain environments, anyway.) > as a senior dev with over 15 proven experience, he should not stress to much about HOW I do it, just WHAT I deliver, and WHEN it is delivered. I guess that was asking for to much? Or being insubordinate? The "what" is quite important. Did the. senior dev/someone talk to you about how they'd like the fix implemented, and did you do it that way? How did the code review go? Are there formal code reviews? Let me guess: you've heard yourself being described as insubordinate before? As a senior dev, it's not just about what you deliver, or when you deliver, but also how you make people feel when you do it, especially as a jr dev. If you told the sr dev during your termination meeting instead of listening to what you were being told, and that "telling truth to power" is important enough to you that telling us that you said that to the sr dev really says there's more going on than Firefox and VS Code. It's possible that they "knew" that telling you that you need to work on social skills X, Y, or Z was going to go poorly, and Firefox and VS code is cover for you being difficult to work with and/or a bad cultural fit fit for the team. > What I did say was that I rarely use browser debuggers, because I've just never felt the need to. The console.log and a good mental image of what the code is doing has got me this far. It didn't get you very far in this job. If you have to stop to add a console.log ever time you have a question about the code instead of just setting a breakpoint and investigate the state at the point with built-in tools, I question your efficacy. If this were, say the Linux kernel that's a different story, but you're not, you're a frontend developer. Which are important these days, but a good one should have more tools in their toolbox than just console.log. It's fine to lean on that first, but it shouldn't be your only tool. On the other hand, they could also be a bunch of jerks who suck, or there was some other power play in the company that resulted in the team losing headcount, but to save face to the rest of the team, they concocted this thing about Firefox.
batoure 3y ago
You say “preferred” alot in your post. Did a leader in your organization ask you to switch tooling and you declined? I work in an organization where we cut deployment bugs in angular by a shocking 40% by consolidating our teams tooling into a consistent set of standards. If a developer started with us who after hearing this wouldnt agree to conform to those standards we would terminate them as quickly as possible.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  No. No one asked me that. In fact, they are pretty easy going in terms of what tools a developer chooses. Which is why its so crushing that he said "we have to let you go, because I do not believe you will handle the tooling we choose six months down the line" I mean.... are this future toolings going to be brought down from aliens???
jillesvangurp 3y ago
Well, that's your interpretation of what they told you. Reading between the lines there might have been a bit more going on. They told you you don't know how to use your tools. In other words that you were not being professional. Not that you are not allowed to use other tools. There's a subtle difference. You might think you know best (can't judge that) but your failure is actually convincing others of those amazing abilities and skills you have. The fact that you are on HN complaining about this, tells me a lot. It's a bit immature behavior and you are burning a few bridges like that. That combined with a few things that maybe didn't go that well in your work in the first weeks would be a gigantic red flag for a manager. I would recommend not doing acting out in public like this. It's unprofessional. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Nobody cares. This is probably a good learning moment for you as well. Somebody didn't see things your way and chose to let you go rather than work with you some more. You might want to reflect on what you could have done differently here. Anyway, you wouldn't be the first opinionated junior developer that gets a reality check this way. They hired you to do a job and you managed to get yourself fired in 3 weeks. Not a good look. You should thank them for not wasting your time more than that and avoid a repeat of that with whatever you do next.
- blowski 3y ago
  > Junior programmer's bookshelf: 90% APIs and programming languages; Senior programmer's bookshelf: 80% applied psychology. https://twitter.com/jbrains/status/616228270841962496 https://twitter.com/jbrains/status/616228270841962496
- tamarind8 3y ago
  > Anyway, you wouldn't be the first opinionated junior developer that gets a reality check this way. hahajahha!!! This guy just called me a junior dev. I guess that is possible. To work 17 years in the same profession, being payed, mostly as a temp contractor, having to prove your chops over and over again every year or so, but still somehow never learning anything. Thanks bro. From today on, I'll consider myself a junior web dev. You showed me the truth with your wise words. > but your failure is actually convincing others of those amazing abilities and skills you have. In three weeks, I got one ticket. T had to insist on being given a ticket. Ticket said fix the CSS for the login page, I fixed the CSS for ALL pages. Did you get that? All pages. You are starting to sound like my boss, asking me over and over again if the CSS was fixed even after the scrum board said so, the git history said so, I said so in daily stand-ups, and I DMed him so in slack. Wow! I guess am a failure then. Maybe I should have jumped on top of my table and repeatedly screamed "I did it! I did it! I did it!". Is that how you think I should have "convinced others of those amazing abilities". Honest question. Please let me know what else I should have done. > They told you you don't know how to use your tools. In other words that you were not being professional. Firefox, or even Chrome for that matter, is not a web dev tool. It is a browser. You use it to browse. Whatever you choose to browse, is your choice. Can you show me one, even just one job ad, from anywhere in this world that says "must professionally only use chrome as their web browser"? > The fact that you are on HN complaining about this, tells me a lot. It's a bit immature behavior and you are burning a few bridges like that. That combined with a few things that maybe didn't go that well in your work in the first weeks would be a gigantic red flag for a manager. Honestly, I don't care about your opinion. The fact that you are complaining about me complaining tells me a lot about you. Very immature, combined with some other petty arguments you have raised.
blowski 3y ago
To me, it's clear this was not "because you used Firefox", albeit that was the written pretext given by the company. It's also not because they changed their mind about the React rewrite. It's far more likely they thought you were going to be a bad culture fit. I could be wrong, as I have very limited context, so here's my justification for making that claim. You're giving a very one-sided view in the intro, and then other important details crop up below. You didn't know Angular, for example, but the company was willing to give you the time to learn it. You sounded hostile about being asked to work more in the office. Reading between the lines, it seems you were also critical about what work you were given. I'm sure you were trying to help, and you were just being honest. But that kind of feedback costs you capital that you didn't have, since you were so new and lacking in experience where they needed it. As a manager, I can imagine thinking that you don't have much expertise in our tech stack, and you're not the most easy-going of people to work with. You mentioned that you thought you were a good fit given their technical goals. But tech skills are a small part of "fit". I think the manager made a decision that they thought was the best for both of you, and they were probably right. And it seems like you need to learn from that, rather than come here looking for validation that none of this was your fault.
- tamarind8 3y ago
  > It's also not because they changed their mind about the React rewrite. It's far more likely they thought you were going to be a bad culture fit. So, that is a valid argument. But looking at my termination letter, it says "did not met the performance expectations and standards". This is after I know, that the only ticket they gave me, which I insisted on being given, did not only meet the requirements, but exceeded them. They wanted me to fix the CSS of the login page, I fixed the CSS of ALL pages. Could you be wrong, or do you need more context?
  - blowski 3y ago
    I absolutely could be wrong. Even if I spent 2 hours listening to both sides, I could still be wrong. This is my best guess, based on my own experience of being a manager. My guess is that you gave them what you thought was honest and helpful feedback, but the way you delivered it made you come across as arrogant and abrasive. I say that because I get the same feeling talking to you on here. Imagine a story that runs like this. You off-handedly made a negative judgment in public about their existing code, which was written by their longest-serving and most senior engineer, who overhears your criticism. They then criticise you in private Slack channels of which you are not a member. Now your manager has a conflict to deal with. On one side, there's a long-standing engineer who knows the existing tech stack in great depth and has delivered much value for the company. On the other is you, somebody who started three weeks ago, and doesn't know much about the tech stack. The easiest way of resolving the conflict is to get rid of you. While they could be patient and see if things improve, your somewhat abrasive reaction to your manager's request to work more in the office makes their mind up that the pain in managing you is not the worth the potential technical skills you offer. HR advises that the lack of knowledge with Angular and browser dev tools gives sufficient justification, no need to muddy the water by mentioning the personal conflicts, as that's much more subjective. Thanks tamarind8, but your work duration probation "did not met the performance expectations and standards" so we're terminating the contract, here's 2 weeks notice as per your contract. You arrive here, and tell us that last sentence, and you're asking if it's fair. The rest of that paragraph gives context to the decision. Now I'm not suggesting I've got all or even any of the details right there, it's simply a generic story I've seen play out quite frequently. But without knowing that kind of detailed context, it's impossible to say what happened. You can't control the decision to fire you. It's done. Whatever the reason. But you can now control your response to it. You can be defensive, blame everything on them, and think about taking legal action that will almost certainly fail. Or you can learn from mistakes you made and do things differently next time.
dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
tamarind8, if it's any comfort for you I think a similar situation is quite common in the industry. It's just that not may developers talk about it when it happens, rather they are sort of shamed into thinking that somehow they are inadequate. The _only_ measure of your output is the results you deliver and the time it takes. What tools you use is irrelevant. If indeed you were talking too long to deliver, reasonable colleagues would have asked you to try a different tool set. The situation that you are probably facing is that they do not like you (for what ever reason, even if you are not responsible for it, for example you don't fit in to their old boy's club), and when people do not like you they will dig up anything and everything that they perceive is a drawback in you. From what you have said you are certainly not a junior dev. Where I see you being somewhat naive is exposure to toxic work environments. A large number of devs and their managers are just immature and nitpicky. Somehow a technology stack is a religion for them. I personally do not know anything that will satisfy such people. And then people can be unimaginably evil, something that often escapes the typical naive engineer/dev who often do not discover it even after having worked up until retirement. Like others have mentioned you have probably dodged a bullet. And your 3 weeks gap is barely anything. Often people can have larger gaps between jobs. Sometimes you can even cover up these gaps by lying on your resume. So point being, relax, do what you can and move on....
- tamarind8 3y ago
  Thank you my friend, those are wise words. And I have quietly moved on from such behavior in the past, only to find it again years later. I feel I have to make a statement this time around. Treating people this way is unacceptable, and illegal. I will have to prove the illegal part, but I'm ready to pay the price.
- simonw 3y ago
  "The _only_ measure of your output is the results you deliver and the time it takes" That may be true at junior levels, but as you become more senior your output is judged on a whole bunch of other things: - Do you elevate the rest of your team? Through mentoring, teaching, documentation etc. - Do you participate productively in higher level strategic planning? Helping the company decide what to build next for example - senior engineers should participate in planning, in order to help the company understand how features can best be built, when to pay down technical debt etc. - Do other people look forward to working with you, or do they avoid it? This can have a major impact on your ability to deliver value. Plenty more things like that.
thomaslevesque 3y ago
> means that I'll most likely be terrible at cross-browser testing "likely"? Who fires someone because they're "likely" bad at something? That's really a bullshit reason to fire someone. If anything, using Firefox makes you better at cross-browser testing, because most other people use Chrome. They needed to let you go for reasons they couldn't tell you, so they were just looking for an excuse. (And Firefox is awesome, btw. It's been my default browser almost since the beginning. I tried switching to Chrome several times, but every time I come back to FF.)
mock-possum 3y ago
something's off about this - the reasoning for firing you doesn't make sense at all. are you sure there wasn't something else going on?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

74 points by tamarind8 3y ago

stefanos82 3y ago

If they have given you this reasoning in written, get yourself a lawyer. Also I firmly believe you dodged a bullet here, sounds like a very toxic environment that give no development freedom.

WantonQuantum 3y ago
Seconded - you don't want to work there.
tamarind8 3y ago
All they said in writing was "unfortunately I do not meet performance standards". For the first two weeks they were happy to let me just learn angular and the app. They gave me a CSS ticket to fix one page last week, and I actually fixed all the pages! But I did it using Firefox and a text editor (vs code) so they are having none of that! > get yourself a lawyer Very seriously considering this.
- jasonkester 3y ago
  I bet if you read this back to yourself, you’ll understand why they let you go. And hopefully you’ll approach your next gig differently. From their perspective, they hired a guy, and it took him 3 weeks to close a single CSS ticket. If you were the company, what would you do? It sounds like you may be new, so chalk it up to miscommunication. But next time, spend the first day “learning” while closing a few real tickets. Make sure you’re up to speed with the rest of the team in your first week, so there’s no question of your value.
  - stefanos82 3y ago
    Read carefully what OP wrote please...not only the CSS issue was fixed, it was also done on ALL pages as well AND the CSS ticket was given the third week.
    - tamarind8 3y ago
      Thanks. I was actually still being asked if the CSS had been done this morning before the firing. Despite the fact that it had actually been moved as done on the board, me saying I'd finished with it in a slack DM with him yesterday, and me saying it was done in yesterdays sprint meeting. I guess when someone-one has already made up their mind, any kind of input gets automatically, and subconsciously deleted from their minds.
  - tamarind8 3y ago
    I actually had to insist on being given that ticket. My boss was actually happy to let me spend more time learning angular and setting up my dev env. Think about that. But the moment I stepped up to, and embraced the challenge, everything changed. Maybe someone whispered some bad things about me? I will never know... What I'd do differently if I wanted to work there? Keep my mouth shut, and not say anything about my views and concerns. Just wait to be given orders and follow them, never questioning anything.
    - jasonkester 3y ago
      Hey, man. I'm only reading what you wrote and responding to the impression it left. Please try to take it constructively. Imagine your boss was actually happy with you not delivering anything those first few weeks. Would he have let you go? I've watched this exact situation play out too many times now to miss the signs. A new person joins the team, spends a few weeks familiarizing and reporting as much in the standups. Manager is encouraging the whole time. Then one day, New Person is no longer with the company, reach out to me if anybody has any concerns. Every time, it's the new person not catching the signals that they should have been self starting and delivering all that time. I'm not trying to say that it's fair. Just pointing out that it happens.

ggeorgovassilis 3y ago

> So my question is, is it fair to terminate a new developer because they use Firefox? I'm sorry for that bad experience. If you were instructed to change tools or given a warning prior to termination, the termination might be justified on grounds of insubordination, but not on merit. Either way, that place you just left carries a bigger red flag than you. > I'm not sure what to do next. Keep learning, get more experience, apply to the next job.

tamarind8 3y ago
Thank you. There was no warning. In-fact, every dev is free to setup their own local environment in whichever way the choose. There is no standard way to setup anything, and one of my goals was to setup my env and document everything step by step on the org's wiki. So that atleast we'd have one official, approved way of doing things. What is most shocking about it all, is they have an Angular app, which they are thinking of moving to React, which is why they hired me. On the basis of my React and JS skills. They trusted me to get up-to speed on Angular, but dismissed me because I use Firefox? Don't want the job back, I'm just feeling that people should not feel free to d*ck others around like this. How will I explain all this on my resume?
- ggeorgovassilis 3y ago
  > How will I explain all this on my resume? You don't. Omit that job.
  - tamarind8 3y ago
    The time gaps between jobs?
    - DamonHD 3y ago
      There have been times when I have strategically done my CV in yyyy or yyyy-mm dates to make such gaps less obvious. But if pressed you can honestly say that you have no idea what the problem was, you performed your requests, and you were given no warning. In any case that was beyond your control and didn't turn into a real job.

not_your_vase 3y ago

If you are actually productive with your method, then I would advice you to be happy that you dodged a bullet, and it only cost you 3 weeks. Go for another company, and don't chase this one. If, however, they have a point, try to learn some productivity tools to be more efficient before going for the job. In any case, don't think too much about this company, it will just distract you.

tamarind8 3y ago
What I did say was that I rarely use browser debuggers, because I've just never felt the need to. The console.log and a good mental image of what the code is doing has got me this far. I asked my boss, that as a senior dev with over 15 proven experience, he should not stress to much about HOW I do it, just WHAT I deliver, and WHEN it is delivered. I guess that was asking for to much? Or being insubordinate? Anyways, I was told my skills, abilities or personality was not the problem, am just not "a good fit". Why? Because I like firefox, and using text editors (vs code) over IDES (visual studio).
- mikro2nd 3y ago
  It sounds like the tooling was just being used as an excuse, that they'd decided to fire you regardless for reasons that they wouldn't want to articulate because they'd be grounds for legal action. Just guessing, of course, but don't believe ~everything~ anything you've been told. I believe you've already made good choices in this: take a deep breath and move on, having "dodged a bullet" as others have commented. Good luck with your next gig.
  - tamarind8 3y ago
    You get it. I will not be surprised at all if the move to React never happened, and everything is still on angular8 one year from now. So why hire me in the fast place? Because they think they can just hire and then fire someone on a whim? If I don't do something about this, they will do it to someone else.
    - 3y ago

stefanos82 3y ago

Another hypothetical scenario that could be taken into consideration is the following: Before hiring you they had either interviewed another candidate that matched their needs and was more experienced than you, or expected a friend of theirs to join their team, but did not reply back for a while and due to their tight schedule, they had to hire someone urgently, thus leading to your hiring. After hiring you, between the end of second and third week, this aforementioned candidate or friend replied and said "I'm available now" and decided to let you go; the only thing that had to do is to figure out a way to use as an excuse to fire you. I have been there myself and I know first hand how it feels; therefore I will repeat myself: discuss the matter with a lawyer and feel happy that you dodged a bazooka, not just a bullet!

tamarind8 3y ago
Thank you, my friend. A year from now I'll be happy I dodged a bullet, and I still have to do something about this injustice I'm feeling now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
croisillon 3y ago
A friend of mine was hired as a back-end dev. When he started they told him they'd rather need some urgent front-end tasks to be done, which was clearly not his strength and he never lied about it, so he gave his best shot. Then on the last day of his probation month they told him he was not good enough and let him go. I'm thinking this might have been a similar case...

frank_bb 3y ago

[dead]

denkmoon 3y ago

I care that my devs are solving problems effectively and not creating further or future problems. Their tools are their choice. You dodged a bullet. Consider letting others know via glassdoor.

bobse 3y ago

Sue them.

mavu 3y ago

Probably lucky that you noticed what a terrible company that was so early and quickly.

blablabla123 3y ago

I mean Firefox used to be not very practical for Web development but I think that was around 2015. Also I've seen much more frontend developers moving away from complex IDEs. Bad for the financial hit, but for learning it's probably better to work somewhere else...

haspok 3y ago

Yes, it is fair to fire you for _any reason_ during the probation period (ok, maybe not for your ethnicity or religious reasons etc - but this is not what has happened here). It is also fair for you to leave on a short notice during the probation period for no reason. It is a two way street. Don't try to read more into this situation than what it really is. Either party did not like the other, no big deal, this happens. Much better to leave early than to suffer through a longer period for nothing. Enjoy Firefox and VS Code - I'm sure there are plenty of other companies that will allow you to use whatever tools you like for development.

tamarind8 3y ago
I think you are missing the point. That one month gap in my resume? Very hard to explain. "So, they let you go why...." It is absolutely unfair, for someone to hire and fire you "for any reason". We are not slaves. Do your due diligence when hiring, and when firing. Is that too much to ask?
- haspok 3y ago
  Sorry mate, we can argue about who is really missing the point here :) The one month gap in your resume nobody cares about. Seriously, don't be so insecure! How do I know this - I just had a massive 8 months gap in mine, and still managed to land a contract in a new country which I was not yet living in, the language of which I don't really speak (yet), and hired in spite of my non-existing skills in FE dev for a full stack job. If I can do it like this, anyone can do it. > Do your due diligence when hiring, and when firing. Is that too much to ask? Yes, absolutely too much. If companies can't fire people, they will be much more reluctant to hire too, it's that simple. They will avoid hiring new people in any way they cna, have 2x more rounds of leetcode shite, and will fire you during probation anyway. You are not a slave, exactly because you can also leave any time. In fact, you should have done it before they fired you. The signs were clearly on the wall.
  - tamarind8 3y ago
    > The one month gap in your resume nobody cares about. Seriously, don't be so insecure! How do I know this - I just had a massive 8 months gap in mine, and still managed to land a contract Thanks mate. I'm happy for you. > In fact, you should have done it before they fired you. The signs were clearly on the wall. Honestly... not really. One day its "take all the time you need", the next it's "why are you using Firefox? That is a red flag on you, and please leave right now".

quickthrower2 3y ago

No, they are clearly idiots. Who are against any kind of diversity. Sorry they wasted your time, and hopefully you can find a decent place to work.

3ds 3y ago

No, it is not fair, nor is it correct. The professional response is, that for the most part it is a matter of preference what tools you use and as long as you are proficient with them and you get the work done, it is more important that you can use tools you are comfortable with and accustomed to, because you will be faster. Nowadays there are few differences between firefox web developer tools and chrome's tools. IDEs can be powerful tools. To me it seems that in some programming languages they are the default, in others not so much. I don't see much IDE usage in frontend development. But it could be useful when writing TypeScript maybe? Anyhow. You did absolutely nothing wrong.

squarefoot 3y ago

You should be thankful that it took you only 3 weeks to realize how rotten was that workplace.

Popcorn3865 3y ago

Fair? No. Termination on grounds of things that _might_ happen is not fair at all. I suspect there's something else going on, as this reasoning seems spurious. Whatever the reasoning, this type of behaviour by an employer is a red flag in itself.

nbittich 3y ago

I don't know if what you say is true but this looks just like an excuse for them to get rid of you. Not a great place to work anyway.

silisili 3y ago

Is it fair? Sure. Is it fair to you? Probably not. It sounds like they were looking for a 'fit', and it wasn't you. That said, these types of things should have been settled during the interview and onboarding processes. If it wasn't, it sounds like a really poor company to work for anyways. Keep your head up, and hope the next one is better.

kilinkis 3y ago

seems like they are the red flag

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

traveler01 3y ago

Firing you for using the only browser that actually makes a decent implementation of web standards? Phew you dodged a bullet there, they are a sh* company for sure. Hope you find a suitable company soon!

mrfumier 3y ago

Legally in most countries, it's up to the company to provide you with the tools to work, therefore it's up to company to choose these tools. In other words, if they provide you with a PC on Windows 7 with Notepad as an editor, you shouldn't (and you probably don't have the admin rights anyway) to install anything else on company's property. In reality, it's usually in the interest of the company to allow you to work with tools on which you are the most productive. But they don't have to.

tamarind8 3y ago
I agree. This company provided a windows box, but did not provide any set any proper guidelines or specifications on how it should look. All the knowledge about that was locked into different developers heads. I was trying to fix that, by documenting everything in the wiki but I guess I use Firefox, so red flag, I've got to go.

zamnos 3y ago

Based on what you've told us here, that's a bit weird. Thing is, we only have half the story. We don't know what else happened in the meeting you were terminated, or got said or happened in the 3 weeks, we don't know what you did and didn't ask your mentor, we don't know how many roadblocks you hit because you're using Firefox and VS Code, we weren't there for the conversation there was about you using Chrome and Visual Studio, or more importantly, how you reacted. We don't know how good you actually are with Firefox and VS Code. If you're struggling to use Firefox and/or can't use VS code very well, which means no one else on the team can help you, and you actively discourage their efforts to help you, I could see that being a red flag. That said, there are a few quotes elsewhere in this thread that give me an inkling that it's not about Firefox and VS code. > So my question is, is it fair to terminate a new developer because they use Firefox? Why is fair relevant? Fair is for board games with your family. This is the real world, and people in power can be as petty as they want. There's no principal of the tech industry to complain to, very little protection (assuming you're in the US, in an at-will state). There's no review board that says yup, that was unfair unless you're a protected class, and was constructively fired for being black/gay/old. > They gave me a CSS ticket to fix one page last week, and I actually fixed all the pages! I mean, it's important to get all of the pages, so it is important that you got all of them, but if you're telling us that you got all the pages, it sounds like there was a meeting that contained additional feedback for you, about how you did/finished the ticket and your attitude about it, and that was your defense in that meeting. Don't get me wrong, you sound hungry for it by pushing your boss to get the ticket - which is a good thing! (In certain environments, anyway.) > as a senior dev with over 15 proven experience, he should not stress to much about HOW I do it, just WHAT I deliver, and WHEN it is delivered. I guess that was asking for to much? Or being insubordinate? The "what" is quite important. Did the. senior dev/someone talk to you about how they'd like the fix implemented, and did you do it that way? How did the code review go? Are there formal code reviews? Let me guess: you've heard yourself being described as insubordinate before? As a senior dev, it's not just about what you deliver, or when you deliver, but also how you make people feel when you do it, especially as a jr dev. If you told the sr dev during your termination meeting instead of listening to what you were being told, and that "telling truth to power" is important enough to you that telling us that you said that to the sr dev really says there's more going on than Firefox and VS Code. It's possible that they "knew" that telling you that you need to work on social skills X, Y, or Z was going to go poorly, and Firefox and VS code is cover for you being difficult to work with and/or a bad cultural fit fit for the team. > What I did say was that I rarely use browser debuggers, because I've just never felt the need to. The console.log and a good mental image of what the code is doing has got me this far. It didn't get you very far in this job. If you have to stop to add a console.log ever time you have a question about the code instead of just setting a breakpoint and investigate the state at the point with built-in tools, I question your efficacy. If this were, say the Linux kernel that's a different story, but you're not, you're a frontend developer. Which are important these days, but a good one should have more tools in their toolbox than just console.log. It's fine to lean on that first, but it shouldn't be your only tool. On the other hand, they could also be a bunch of jerks who suck, or there was some other power play in the company that resulted in the team losing headcount, but to save face to the rest of the team, they concocted this thing about Firefox.

batoure 3y ago

You say “preferred” alot in your post. Did a leader in your organization ask you to switch tooling and you declined? I work in an organization where we cut deployment bugs in angular by a shocking 40% by consolidating our teams tooling into a consistent set of standards. If a developer started with us who after hearing this wouldnt agree to conform to those standards we would terminate them as quickly as possible.

tamarind8 3y ago
No. No one asked me that. In fact, they are pretty easy going in terms of what tools a developer chooses. Which is why its so crushing that he said "we have to let you go, because I do not believe you will handle the tooling we choose six months down the line" I mean.... are this future toolings going to be brought down from aliens???

jillesvangurp 3y ago

Well, that's your interpretation of what they told you. Reading between the lines there might have been a bit more going on. They told you you don't know how to use your tools. In other words that you were not being professional. Not that you are not allowed to use other tools. There's a subtle difference. You might think you know best (can't judge that) but your failure is actually convincing others of those amazing abilities and skills you have. The fact that you are on HN complaining about this, tells me a lot. It's a bit immature behavior and you are burning a few bridges like that. That combined with a few things that maybe didn't go that well in your work in the first weeks would be a gigantic red flag for a manager. I would recommend not doing acting out in public like this. It's unprofessional. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Nobody cares. This is probably a good learning moment for you as well. Somebody didn't see things your way and chose to let you go rather than work with you some more. You might want to reflect on what you could have done differently here. Anyway, you wouldn't be the first opinionated junior developer that gets a reality check this way. They hired you to do a job and you managed to get yourself fired in 3 weeks. Not a good look. You should thank them for not wasting your time more than that and avoid a repeat of that with whatever you do next.

blowski 3y ago
> Junior programmer's bookshelf: 90% APIs and programming languages; Senior programmer's bookshelf: 80% applied psychology. https://twitter.com/jbrains/status/616228270841962496 https://twitter.com/jbrains/status/616228270841962496
tamarind8 3y ago
> Anyway, you wouldn't be the first opinionated junior developer that gets a reality check this way. hahajahha!!! This guy just called me a junior dev. I guess that is possible. To work 17 years in the same profession, being payed, mostly as a temp contractor, having to prove your chops over and over again every year or so, but still somehow never learning anything. Thanks bro. From today on, I'll consider myself a junior web dev. You showed me the truth with your wise words. > but your failure is actually convincing others of those amazing abilities and skills you have. In three weeks, I got one ticket. T had to insist on being given a ticket. Ticket said fix the CSS for the login page, I fixed the CSS for ALL pages. Did you get that? All pages. You are starting to sound like my boss, asking me over and over again if the CSS was fixed even after the scrum board said so, the git history said so, I said so in daily stand-ups, and I DMed him so in slack. Wow! I guess am a failure then. Maybe I should have jumped on top of my table and repeatedly screamed "I did it! I did it! I did it!". Is that how you think I should have "convinced others of those amazing abilities". Honest question. Please let me know what else I should have done. > They told you you don't know how to use your tools. In other words that you were not being professional. Firefox, or even Chrome for that matter, is not a web dev tool. It is a browser. You use it to browse. Whatever you choose to browse, is your choice. Can you show me one, even just one job ad, from anywhere in this world that says "must professionally only use chrome as their web browser"? > The fact that you are on HN complaining about this, tells me a lot. It's a bit immature behavior and you are burning a few bridges like that. That combined with a few things that maybe didn't go that well in your work in the first weeks would be a gigantic red flag for a manager. Honestly, I don't care about your opinion. The fact that you are complaining about me complaining tells me a lot about you. Very immature, combined with some other petty arguments you have raised.

blowski 3y ago

To me, it's clear this was not "because you used Firefox", albeit that was the written pretext given by the company. It's also not because they changed their mind about the React rewrite. It's far more likely they thought you were going to be a bad culture fit. I could be wrong, as I have very limited context, so here's my justification for making that claim. You're giving a very one-sided view in the intro, and then other important details crop up below. You didn't know Angular, for example, but the company was willing to give you the time to learn it. You sounded hostile about being asked to work more in the office. Reading between the lines, it seems you were also critical about what work you were given. I'm sure you were trying to help, and you were just being honest. But that kind of feedback costs you capital that you didn't have, since you were so new and lacking in experience where they needed it. As a manager, I can imagine thinking that you don't have much expertise in our tech stack, and you're not the most easy-going of people to work with. You mentioned that you thought you were a good fit given their technical goals. But tech skills are a small part of "fit". I think the manager made a decision that they thought was the best for both of you, and they were probably right. And it seems like you need to learn from that, rather than come here looking for validation that none of this was your fault.

tamarind8 3y ago
> It's also not because they changed their mind about the React rewrite. It's far more likely they thought you were going to be a bad culture fit. So, that is a valid argument. But looking at my termination letter, it says "did not met the performance expectations and standards". This is after I know, that the only ticket they gave me, which I insisted on being given, did not only meet the requirements, but exceeded them. They wanted me to fix the CSS of the login page, I fixed the CSS of ALL pages. Could you be wrong, or do you need more context?
- blowski 3y ago
  I absolutely could be wrong. Even if I spent 2 hours listening to both sides, I could still be wrong. This is my best guess, based on my own experience of being a manager. My guess is that you gave them what you thought was honest and helpful feedback, but the way you delivered it made you come across as arrogant and abrasive. I say that because I get the same feeling talking to you on here. Imagine a story that runs like this. You off-handedly made a negative judgment in public about their existing code, which was written by their longest-serving and most senior engineer, who overhears your criticism. They then criticise you in private Slack channels of which you are not a member. Now your manager has a conflict to deal with. On one side, there's a long-standing engineer who knows the existing tech stack in great depth and has delivered much value for the company. On the other is you, somebody who started three weeks ago, and doesn't know much about the tech stack. The easiest way of resolving the conflict is to get rid of you. While they could be patient and see if things improve, your somewhat abrasive reaction to your manager's request to work more in the office makes their mind up that the pain in managing you is not the worth the potential technical skills you offer. HR advises that the lack of knowledge with Angular and browser dev tools gives sufficient justification, no need to muddy the water by mentioning the personal conflicts, as that's much more subjective. Thanks tamarind8, but your work duration probation "did not met the performance expectations and standards" so we're terminating the contract, here's 2 weeks notice as per your contract. You arrive here, and tell us that last sentence, and you're asking if it's fair. The rest of that paragraph gives context to the decision. Now I'm not suggesting I've got all or even any of the details right there, it's simply a generic story I've seen play out quite frequently. But without knowing that kind of detailed context, it's impossible to say what happened. You can't control the decision to fire you. It's done. Whatever the reason. But you can now control your response to it. You can be defensive, blame everything on them, and think about taking legal action that will almost certainly fail. Or you can learn from mistakes you made and do things differently next time.

dennis_jeeves1 3y ago

tamarind8, if it's any comfort for you I think a similar situation is quite common in the industry. It's just that not may developers talk about it when it happens, rather they are sort of shamed into thinking that somehow they are inadequate. The _only_ measure of your output is the results you deliver and the time it takes. What tools you use is irrelevant. If indeed you were talking too long to deliver, reasonable colleagues would have asked you to try a different tool set. The situation that you are probably facing is that they do not like you (for what ever reason, even if you are not responsible for it, for example you don't fit in to their old boy's club), and when people do not like you they will dig up anything and everything that they perceive is a drawback in you. From what you have said you are certainly not a junior dev. Where I see you being somewhat naive is exposure to toxic work environments. A large number of devs and their managers are just immature and nitpicky. Somehow a technology stack is a religion for them. I personally do not know anything that will satisfy such people. And then people can be unimaginably evil, something that often escapes the typical naive engineer/dev who often do not discover it even after having worked up until retirement. Like others have mentioned you have probably dodged a bullet. And your 3 weeks gap is barely anything. Often people can have larger gaps between jobs. Sometimes you can even cover up these gaps by lying on your resume. So point being, relax, do what you can and move on....

tamarind8 3y ago
Thank you my friend, those are wise words. And I have quietly moved on from such behavior in the past, only to find it again years later. I feel I have to make a statement this time around. Treating people this way is unacceptable, and illegal. I will have to prove the illegal part, but I'm ready to pay the price.
simonw 3y ago
"The _only_ measure of your output is the results you deliver and the time it takes" That may be true at junior levels, but as you become more senior your output is judged on a whole bunch of other things: - Do you elevate the rest of your team? Through mentoring, teaching, documentation etc. - Do you participate productively in higher level strategic planning? Helping the company decide what to build next for example - senior engineers should participate in planning, in order to help the company understand how features can best be built, when to pay down technical debt etc. - Do other people look forward to working with you, or do they avoid it? This can have a major impact on your ability to deliver value. Plenty more things like that.

thomaslevesque 3y ago

> means that I'll most likely be terrible at cross-browser testing "likely"? Who fires someone because they're "likely" bad at something? That's really a bullshit reason to fire someone. If anything, using Firefox makes you better at cross-browser testing, because most other people use Chrome. They needed to let you go for reasons they couldn't tell you, so they were just looking for an excuse. (And Firefox is awesome, btw. It's been my default browser almost since the beginning. I tried switching to Chrome several times, but every time I come back to FF.)

mock-possum 3y ago

something's off about this - the reasoning for firing you doesn't make sense at all. are you sure there wasn't something else going on?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]