7 ms·

Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going t

Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen? Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed, then guess what's going to happen? The majority will find the best way to procure what they need under the circumstances and the minority will fight to change the situation. It just happens that it in this particular situation the best way to procure what people need is not by choosing the least evil of the providers, but you have a choice to copy stuff for free, instead. Let's make things clear: this doesn't make it legal to pirate stuff. On the other hand, "legal", "correct", "practical" and "optimal" are never the same thing. Just as no amount of arguing will change the fact that piracy is (still) illegal, no amount of arguing will change the fact that the industry needs to evolve.

paulhauggis 15y ago
"Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen?" Whenever we have discussions about companies violating the GNU and people say "just don't use GNU software", I say the same thing. But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license. What a world we live in. I'm going to keep bringing up these points until they stick. "Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed," You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together. This isn't new. I saw this same "movement" 10 years ago with Napster and it's nothing more than an excuse to get movies, music, and software for free. Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists.
- Natsu 15y ago
  > But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license. They could be against it because it hinders sharing, not because it violates copyright.
  - figglesonrails 15y ago
    Haha, them be fightin' words. Better hope the EFF doesn't get wind of that! ;)
- msravi 15y ago
  Quote: "But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license" You probably have cause and effect reversed. I'd wager that one of the biggest reasons for their wanting an enforcement of the terms of the GNU license is to show the big companies what it feels like to be in a situation where your choice is limited to one of (a) stick to the terms, or (b) don't use
- CodeMage 15y ago
  You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together. Correction: you don't need them to survive. They are, however, a part of everyone's lives nowadays. We all grew up listening to music and watching movies. It would require tremendous external pressure (such as war or plague) to change that. Maslow's Pyramid and all that jazz. Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists. I'm not sure what demands were made 10 years ago, but I can tell you that I, as a customer, am far from satisfied. I want to be able to 1) buy digital music (MP3, OGG, I don't care) in an online store 2) access that store via HTTP(S) using my browser, not some proprietary bloatware 3) find a variety of songs in the store, have lots of stuff to choose 4) download that music to any device I have, as many times as I want 5) be able to play that music without being connected to the Internet 6) do all of the above regardless of the fact that I don't live in US, UK or Germany, to name a few favorite countries When those conditions are met, you'll have people like me -- people who want to try buying the content instead of pirating -- try to switch to these new services. The piracy will start declining, albeit very, very slowly. People have had a freaking decade to get used to getting stuff for free, because the industry refused to adapt. Worse, the industry is still resisting the change and refusing to evolve. These things have their own momentum and inertia. It would be extreme optimism to expect a change to happen overnight, once good alternatives are available. As things stand, it's beyond extreme optimism to expect that change -- it's completely ridiculous.
  - cobrausn 15y ago
    So, because their product is not up to your arbitrary set of demands, you feel justified in pirating it? Couldn't they meet those and you could just come up with more demands? I don't buy it. Hiding behind a list of demands that must be met in order for you to be okay with actually financially compensating the people who financially backed, created, and then distributed said content is just posturing. At least, that's how it looks from the perspective of someone who a) doesn't pirate and b) doesn't buy media when the terms are not to his liking. I've met a few people who pirate songs and then buy band merchandise in order to get proceeds to the band (more than otherwise, if I am to understand it correctly). Those guys are cool guys, and they back their moral rhetoric with their actions. Something tells me the majority of pirates are not like these guys, though (admittedly) I have no facts to back that up - just the anecdotal evidence of knowing quite a few pirates, most of whom, to put it bluntly, really don't give a fuck - they just want the content.
- Prisen 15y ago
  >> Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists. All the news I've read regarding streaming services (they have existed a lot less than 10 years, mind you) is that they are decreasing piracy. Do you have any other data points?
- figglesonrails 15y ago
  GNU License? What? Your comparison breaks down heavily when you actually consider it. GNU software tends to be competition for proprietary/non-open software. They are substitute products. Comparing them to music isn't really a good thing to do since you can't find a comparable substitute for Incubus's style and Brandon Boyd's voice, where as I can change out GCC compiler for Solaris Studio, Visual Studio, or ICC any day I want with minimal effort and precisely the same results.
- pyre 15y ago
  > But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine > with pirating are against essentially the same thing > with the GNU license. Do you have actual concrete example of this? Or are you just attributing opinions to 'HN' as some sort of singular entity? "The funny thing is" that I see claims like this all the time from both sides of the fence. "HN is just a bunch of Google apologists!" "HN is just a bunch of Google-haters!" etc...

paulhauggis 15y ago

"Why do people always resort to the same argument ("stop buying") as if it were a solution? Isn't it obvious by now that it's not a solution and it's not going to happen?" Whenever we have discussions about companies violating the GNU and people say "just don't use GNU software", I say the same thing. But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license. What a world we live in. I'm going to keep bringing up these points until they stick. "Voting with your wallet works when you can stop paying one company and go to its competitor. But if they all get together and decide that you have to do it their way or you're screwed," You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together. This isn't new. I saw this same "movement" 10 years ago with Napster and it's nothing more than an excuse to get movies, music, and software for free. Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists.

Natsu 15y ago
> But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license. They could be against it because it hinders sharing, not because it violates copyright.
- figglesonrails 15y ago
  Haha, them be fightin' words. Better hope the EFF doesn't get wind of that! ;)
msravi 15y ago
Quote: "But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine with pirating are against essentially the same thing with the GNU license" You probably have cause and effect reversed. I'd wager that one of the biggest reasons for their wanting an enforcement of the terms of the GNU license is to show the big companies what it feels like to be in a situation where your choice is limited to one of (a) stick to the terms, or (b) don't use
CodeMage 15y ago
You don't need music or movies to live. If they all decide to do it, just stop buying all together. Correction: you don't need them to survive. They are, however, a part of everyone's lives nowadays. We all grew up listening to music and watching movies. It would require tremendous external pressure (such as war or plague) to change that. Maslow's Pyramid and all that jazz. Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists. I'm not sure what demands were made 10 years ago, but I can tell you that I, as a customer, am far from satisfied. I want to be able to 1) buy digital music (MP3, OGG, I don't care) in an online store 2) access that store via HTTP(S) using my browser, not some proprietary bloatware 3) find a variety of songs in the store, have lots of stuff to choose 4) download that music to any device I have, as many times as I want 5) be able to play that music without being connected to the Internet 6) do all of the above regardless of the fact that I don't live in US, UK or Germany, to name a few favorite countries When those conditions are met, you'll have people like me -- people who want to try buying the content instead of pirating -- try to switch to these new services. The piracy will start declining, albeit very, very slowly. People have had a freaking decade to get used to getting stuff for free, because the industry refused to adapt. Worse, the industry is still resisting the change and refusing to evolve. These things have their own momentum and inertia. It would be extreme optimism to expect a change to happen overnight, once good alternatives are available. As things stand, it's beyond extreme optimism to expect that change -- it's completely ridiculous.
- cobrausn 15y ago
  So, because their product is not up to your arbitrary set of demands, you feel justified in pirating it? Couldn't they meet those and you could just come up with more demands? I don't buy it. Hiding behind a list of demands that must be met in order for you to be okay with actually financially compensating the people who financially backed, created, and then distributed said content is just posturing. At least, that's how it looks from the perspective of someone who a) doesn't pirate and b) doesn't buy media when the terms are not to his liking. I've met a few people who pirate songs and then buy band merchandise in order to get proceeds to the band (more than otherwise, if I am to understand it correctly). Those guys are cool guys, and they back their moral rhetoric with their actions. Something tells me the majority of pirates are not like these guys, though (admittedly) I have no facts to back that up - just the anecdotal evidence of knowing quite a few pirates, most of whom, to put it bluntly, really don't give a fuck - they just want the content.
Prisen 15y ago
>> Music is so cheap. All of the original demands 10 years ago have been met. Guess what? piracy is worse than ever. It reminds me why you never negotiate with terrorists. All the news I've read regarding streaming services (they have existed a lot less than 10 years, mind you) is that they are decreasing piracy. Do you have any other data points?
figglesonrails 15y ago
GNU License? What? Your comparison breaks down heavily when you actually consider it. GNU software tends to be competition for proprietary/non-open software. They are substitute products. Comparing them to music isn't really a good thing to do since you can't find a comparable substitute for Incubus's style and Brandon Boyd's voice, where as I can change out GCC compiler for Solaris Studio, Visual Studio, or ICC any day I want with minimal effort and precisely the same results.
pyre 15y ago
> But the funny thing is, the same people that are fine > with pirating are against essentially the same thing > with the GNU license. Do you have actual concrete example of this? Or are you just attributing opinions to 'HN' as some sort of singular entity? "The funny thing is" that I see claims like this all the time from both sides of the fence. "HN is just a bunch of Google apologists!" "HN is just a bunch of Google-haters!" etc...