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This practice is more generally known as "drip pricing"[1], and it is definitely a dark pattern. My feeling is that the travel search engines should define a s

This practice is more generally known as "drip pricing"[1], and it is definitely a dark pattern. My feeling is that the travel search engines should define a standard for a certain category of travel, and then show the price that achieves that standard. That this hasn't happened shows a sort of industry capture or lack of competition, IMO. If a hotel is said to be 4-stars, then amenities like WiFi, gym, and pool access should be included in the rate. If they have a resort fee, that should be included on the search engine. For airfare, economy class should have a reserved seat, printed ticket, with X inches of legroom, Y inches of width, 1 standard carry-on, 1 check-in bag, a soft drink and crunchy snack of your choice for short flights, and a meal at 4+ hours. Whatever price that ends up being is what is shown on the search engine. If it requires "economy plus" to achieve that level of service, then that's what you get if you search for "economy" class fares. Let the search engine have a "steerage" search class for the 2-star hotel experience at a 4-star hotel, and the "water costs extra" economy airlines. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drip_pricing

CaptainZapp 3y ago
I'm not opposed to unbundling for flight tickets. If you don't have checked luggage or don't need to eat, why pay for it? What riles me up is when airlines intentionally provide a shitty experience when you're not willing to pay the higher price. To me, as a status flyer this is s form of blackmail and I'm not willing to play. Their error of thinking (looking at you, Lufthansa Group, but others likely pull the exact same shit) is that I don't only buy cheap flights, but will sometimes splurge for a business ticket in long distance. Just this February my business went to the Omanis (which also offer the better product). Being treated like shit on short distance flights was not the only reason, but certainly a factor.
- throwaway22032 3y ago
  The problem is that eventually it becomes ridiculous to the extent that the process feels, well, just mean. For example, budget flights in Europe have no cabin baggage included other than a very small bag. There's enough space in the cabin, and logically the cost of adding another 10kg to each person can't be more than 10-15% of the ticket, but it's way more than that to add a normal sized bag.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Sure, people often travel without checked luggage. But the "basic economy" tier typically also forbids you from bringing a carry-on bag (just one personal item), and you also don't have a reserved seat. How often do people fly with just one personal item? And if you don't have a reserved seat, then you're the first person to be bumped if the flight is overbooked and everyone actually shows up. So while some perks are often optional, most of the unbundling affects core features. And presumably the reason for this is so they can show up as the lowest price, get you halfway through the purchase process, and convince you to upgrade.
- xp84 3y ago
  > Just this February my business went to... So happy to hear that there was competition for you to do that! The lack of it on so many routes (and the oligopoly that is domestic air travel) is the source of this whole problem. If sufficient competition exists, it puts a limit on the degree they can get away with. Without it, the blueprint is clear: Make them miserable while inventing ways to pay to escape it.
- avidiax 3y ago
  I'm not saying that you can't have unbundled pricing, or go with an ultra-economy carrier if that product suits you best. I'm saying that listing ultra-economy in the same search results as (now so-called) "premium" economy is a race to the bottom. We can stop this race if we just define a standard bundle and force competition on the basis of the bundle price. If they could charge you extra for the privilege of taking the clothes on your back, they would. I'm surprised they aren't already charging to use seat-back entertainment (or "limited ads" seatback entertainment) or the reading lamp.
gnicholas 3y ago
> a meal at 4+ hours Man, I can't remember the last time I had a meal on a domestic flight. I just flew from BOS-SFO and was thrilled that JetBlue gave us unlimited snacks on the 6 hour flight. But thinking back, I realize now that cross-country flights used to always have a meal. And reasonably-sized seats.
- eek2121 3y ago
  My last few international (North America -> Europe) didn't have meals. Booze? Yes. Snacks? Yes. Meals? No. I actually plan on traveling first class next time because of this.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    Who are you flying with that isn't giving a meal? Norwegian is the only carrier I know with optional meal service. If you're the carrier - it's bad business to have hangry passengers.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Which cities did you travel between? I don't travel to EU much, but I could imagine that flying between London and NYC might be the same amount of travel time as NYC-SF. That said, we all expect more of international flights, and this is a really disappointing data point to learn of.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    I've never experienced this in decades of slumming it in coach back and forth across the Atlantic. Pretty much the minimum flight time from NA->Europe is 6+ hours. Have you actually checked the price differential between coach and first class? It's like two orders of magnitude. Might be better off stopping at Mickey Dees at JFK before boarding.
  - Shaanie 3y ago
    Does first class mean something different to you? A first class ticket is ridiculously expensive and all airlines don't even offer them. A business class ticket is absolutely going to have meals included, and won't require robbing a bank.
dangus 3y ago
A few thoughts: - The Wi-Fi and breakfast situation is the opposite of what you describe for clear market reasons. People who go to four star hotels aren’t interested in trash continental breakfast and would rather pay for something good, and Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it. In contrast, breakfast is included at lower tier hotels because price conscious customers shop on value. - Flight search engines already detail important flight details like basic economy restrictions and other factors. - People need to grow up about meals on flights. This isn’t 1960 when flights were essentially all business and first class fares adjusted for inflation. You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you. Bring an empty water bottle through TSA and fill it at the water fountain.
- lxgr 3y ago
  > You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you. If the airline allows it. I've been on at least one long-haul flight (>12 hours) where they explicitly didn't.
  - nukeman 3y ago
    What airline, so I know to avoid them?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- gnicholas 3y ago
  > People who go to four star hotels aren’t interested in trash continental breakfast and would rather pay for something good I've had very good breakfasts at middle-tier hotels. Sometimes they were entirely free, and sometimes they would just give you $25 off or something. > Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it Do hotels charge for wifi? Seems like everyone includes serviceable wifi, though some have a paid tier if you want a faster connection. I never have — is this common for people to pay for? > You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you I'll remember that next time I get up for a flight at 4:30 AM, when no eateries are open. There is good food in many airports, but I can't exactly take ramen to-go. Airport food is also incredibly expensive.
himinlomax 3y ago
> This practice is more generally known as "drip pricing"[1], and it is definitely a dark pattern. It's not a dark pattern, it's simply a crime in many jurisdictions. My grandfather was an inspector for the fraud and safety administration in the 1970s in France, and he would regularly fine businesses that would hide fees from their advertised prices. Restaurants used to be the worst offenders, but a long time ago a law was passed such that they are obligated to exhaustively list their price at the entrance and specify that it's all included. It's rather surprising to me that this kind of practice is still allowed nowadays in the US, and that it's in fact getting worse.

CaptainZapp 3y ago

I'm not opposed to unbundling for flight tickets. If you don't have checked luggage or don't need to eat, why pay for it? What riles me up is when airlines intentionally provide a shitty experience when you're not willing to pay the higher price. To me, as a status flyer this is s form of blackmail and I'm not willing to play. Their error of thinking (looking at you, Lufthansa Group, but others likely pull the exact same shit) is that I don't only buy cheap flights, but will sometimes splurge for a business ticket in long distance. Just this February my business went to the Omanis (which also offer the better product). Being treated like shit on short distance flights was not the only reason, but certainly a factor.

throwaway22032 3y ago
The problem is that eventually it becomes ridiculous to the extent that the process feels, well, just mean. For example, budget flights in Europe have no cabin baggage included other than a very small bag. There's enough space in the cabin, and logically the cost of adding another 10kg to each person can't be more than 10-15% of the ticket, but it's way more than that to add a normal sized bag.
gnicholas 3y ago
Sure, people often travel without checked luggage. But the "basic economy" tier typically also forbids you from bringing a carry-on bag (just one personal item), and you also don't have a reserved seat. How often do people fly with just one personal item? And if you don't have a reserved seat, then you're the first person to be bumped if the flight is overbooked and everyone actually shows up. So while some perks are often optional, most of the unbundling affects core features. And presumably the reason for this is so they can show up as the lowest price, get you halfway through the purchase process, and convince you to upgrade.
xp84 3y ago
> Just this February my business went to... So happy to hear that there was competition for you to do that! The lack of it on so many routes (and the oligopoly that is domestic air travel) is the source of this whole problem. If sufficient competition exists, it puts a limit on the degree they can get away with. Without it, the blueprint is clear: Make them miserable while inventing ways to pay to escape it.
avidiax 3y ago
I'm not saying that you can't have unbundled pricing, or go with an ultra-economy carrier if that product suits you best. I'm saying that listing ultra-economy in the same search results as (now so-called) "premium" economy is a race to the bottom. We can stop this race if we just define a standard bundle and force competition on the basis of the bundle price. If they could charge you extra for the privilege of taking the clothes on your back, they would. I'm surprised they aren't already charging to use seat-back entertainment (or "limited ads" seatback entertainment) or the reading lamp.

gnicholas 3y ago

> a meal at 4+ hours Man, I can't remember the last time I had a meal on a domestic flight. I just flew from BOS-SFO and was thrilled that JetBlue gave us unlimited snacks on the 6 hour flight. But thinking back, I realize now that cross-country flights used to always have a meal. And reasonably-sized seats.

eek2121 3y ago
My last few international (North America -> Europe) didn't have meals. Booze? Yes. Snacks? Yes. Meals? No. I actually plan on traveling first class next time because of this.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Who are you flying with that isn't giving a meal? Norwegian is the only carrier I know with optional meal service. If you're the carrier - it's bad business to have hangry passengers.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Which cities did you travel between? I don't travel to EU much, but I could imagine that flying between London and NYC might be the same amount of travel time as NYC-SF. That said, we all expect more of international flights, and this is a really disappointing data point to learn of.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  I've never experienced this in decades of slumming it in coach back and forth across the Atlantic. Pretty much the minimum flight time from NA->Europe is 6+ hours. Have you actually checked the price differential between coach and first class? It's like two orders of magnitude. Might be better off stopping at Mickey Dees at JFK before boarding.
- Shaanie 3y ago
  Does first class mean something different to you? A first class ticket is ridiculously expensive and all airlines don't even offer them. A business class ticket is absolutely going to have meals included, and won't require robbing a bank.

dangus 3y ago

A few thoughts: - The Wi-Fi and breakfast situation is the opposite of what you describe for clear market reasons. People who go to four star hotels aren’t interested in trash continental breakfast and would rather pay for something good, and Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it. In contrast, breakfast is included at lower tier hotels because price conscious customers shop on value. - Flight search engines already detail important flight details like basic economy restrictions and other factors. - People need to grow up about meals on flights. This isn’t 1960 when flights were essentially all business and first class fares adjusted for inflation. You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you. Bring an empty water bottle through TSA and fill it at the water fountain.

lxgr 3y ago
> You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you. If the airline allows it. I've been on at least one long-haul flight (>12 hours) where they explicitly didn't.
- nukeman 3y ago
  What airline, so I know to avoid them?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
gnicholas 3y ago
> People who go to four star hotels aren’t interested in trash continental breakfast and would rather pay for something good I've had very good breakfasts at middle-tier hotels. Sometimes they were entirely free, and sometimes they would just give you $25 off or something. > Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it Do hotels charge for wifi? Seems like everyone includes serviceable wifi, though some have a paid tier if you want a faster connection. I never have — is this common for people to pay for? > You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you I'll remember that next time I get up for a flight at 4:30 AM, when no eateries are open. There is good food in many airports, but I can't exactly take ramen to-go. Airport food is also incredibly expensive.

himinlomax 3y ago

> This practice is more generally known as "drip pricing"[1], and it is definitely a dark pattern. It's not a dark pattern, it's simply a crime in many jurisdictions. My grandfather was an inspector for the fraud and safety administration in the 1970s in France, and he would regularly fine businesses that would hide fees from their advertised prices. Restaurants used to be the worst offenders, but a long time ago a law was passed such that they are obligated to exhaustively list their price at the entrance and specify that it's all included. It's rather surprising to me that this kind of practice is still allowed nowadays in the US, and that it's in fact getting worse.