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I feel so uneasy with a ‘division?’ of government defined as “ends justify.” The Constitution does not exist in those halls (as evidenced), and if one assumes a

I feel so uneasy with a ‘division?’ of government defined as “ends justify.” The Constitution does not exist in those halls (as evidenced), and if one assumes an limit to infinity state, many tyrannical actions could take place. Do you feel that fear is misplaced? Or do we derive societal level benefit from the unfortunate things that could (and do?) occur?

sneak 3y ago
No, the CIA is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations on Earth. They ran torture centers, got caught, got investigated by congress, lied under oath, then got caught hacking congressional computers to delete evidence of the lies. Nobody went to jail.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Worse, the 92 tapes of torture were destroyed, and the incoming Democratic president announced that there would be no torture prosecutions, even for the woman who intentionally destroyed the evidence. Gina Haspel was appointed Director of the CIA by his Republican successor.
- akomtu 3y ago
  It's the state itself. Congress and other institutions are those who try to contain the state in its cage - Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
- hereforphone 3y ago
  If you think the CIA is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations on earth, you probably haven't had a lot of exposure to organizations around the world. I'm not saying their mission and means of achieving it is necessarily angelic. I'm saying that there are hundreds or thousands of much more evil organizations in this world.
  - retox 3y ago
    It might help your case if you suggest some.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      Contemporary? Belarusian KGB, Chinese Ministry of State Security and United Front Work Department and 610 Office, Cuban Intelligence Directorate, Iranian Ministry of Intelligence, Haitian Service d'Intelligence National (funded by the CIA), Israeli Mossad, Pakistani ISI, Myanma OCMSA, North Korean Ministry of State Security and RGB.
      - jasonm23 3y ago
        don't forget all the Secret police agencies trained by the CIA, at the school of the America's and the rest. We are terribly lucky to have such wonderful people protecting ${ideology x} /s
        ethbr0 3y ago
        I only listed contemporary examples.
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        You left out French and UK intelligence, and their long history of colonial and post-colonial fuckery. Singling out the CIA is like trying to give speeding tickets to NASCAR drivers; they're all gonna get one, the CIA is just going the fastest.
        ethbr0 3y ago
        The Wikipedia pages for various national intelligence organizations are hilarious concise. Good retirement hobby: summarizing everything from dead tree niche books to the web.
        hereforphone 3y ago
        Excellent analogy, thanks.
- jasonm23 3y ago
  The list is endless. Similarly, intelligence agencies worldwide operate outside the law. Although there aren't any ex-"intelligence" heads of state... well, that's not entirely true. Throughout history, those in power have often lied to those they govern, and it's a crucial aspect of their operation. However, using torture, violence, false flag operations, and being an adversary to one's own people isn't necessary, except when it's deemed necessary for the "greater good." It's a dark rabbit hole that can shatter one's faith in society, and even asking questions can lead you down that path. Therefore, most of us turn a blind eye to it. Undermining one authority can undermine the credibility of all authority because all authority is built on faulty logic and falsehoods, despite being a necessary component of a functioning state. I forgot to mention this sucks.
  - boppo1 3y ago
    > all authority is built on faulty logic and falsehoods That’s a big claim. If you’re talking about current national and state-level governments, sure, granted. But there is plenty of legitimate authority out there.
drc500free 3y ago
Different contexts require different paradigms. For example, you can't operate in a war if you require your soldiers to arrest everyone who is shooting at them and collect evidence for an eventual trial. You also can't operate as even a regional power (let alone a global superpower) without keeping tabs on your adversaries. The difficulty is in structuring agencies that have to follow different paradigms and determining how they should interact. One key bifurcation is supposed to be that intelligence services face outward, dealing with people who don't have constitutional protection because they are not residents or citizens. That outward focus has gotten muddied by the focus on preventing domestic terror attacks, the reality that much of the internet's physical infrastructure exists within our borders, and the difficulty in automatically determining the nationality of online personas.
pyuser583 3y ago
The constitution does exist in those environments. Lawyers and judges review plans for covert action, assessing whether it’s constitutional, authorized by congress, and in accordance with executive policy.

sneak 3y ago

No, the CIA is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations on Earth. They ran torture centers, got caught, got investigated by congress, lied under oath, then got caught hacking congressional computers to delete evidence of the lies. Nobody went to jail.

pessimizer 3y ago
Worse, the 92 tapes of torture were destroyed, and the incoming Democratic president announced that there would be no torture prosecutions, even for the woman who intentionally destroyed the evidence. Gina Haspel was appointed Director of the CIA by his Republican successor.
akomtu 3y ago
It's the state itself. Congress and other institutions are those who try to contain the state in its cage - Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
hereforphone 3y ago
If you think the CIA is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations on earth, you probably haven't had a lot of exposure to organizations around the world. I'm not saying their mission and means of achieving it is necessarily angelic. I'm saying that there are hundreds or thousands of much more evil organizations in this world.
- retox 3y ago
  It might help your case if you suggest some.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    Contemporary? Belarusian KGB, Chinese Ministry of State Security and United Front Work Department and 610 Office, Cuban Intelligence Directorate, Iranian Ministry of Intelligence, Haitian Service d'Intelligence National (funded by the CIA), Israeli Mossad, Pakistani ISI, Myanma OCMSA, North Korean Ministry of State Security and RGB.
    - jasonm23 3y ago
      don't forget all the Secret police agencies trained by the CIA, at the school of the America's and the rest. We are terribly lucky to have such wonderful people protecting ${ideology x} /s
      - ethbr0 3y ago
        I only listed contemporary examples.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      You left out French and UK intelligence, and their long history of colonial and post-colonial fuckery. Singling out the CIA is like trying to give speeding tickets to NASCAR drivers; they're all gonna get one, the CIA is just going the fastest.
      - ethbr0 3y ago
        The Wikipedia pages for various national intelligence organizations are hilarious concise. Good retirement hobby: summarizing everything from dead tree niche books to the web.
      - hereforphone 3y ago
        Excellent analogy, thanks.
jasonm23 3y ago
The list is endless. Similarly, intelligence agencies worldwide operate outside the law. Although there aren't any ex-"intelligence" heads of state... well, that's not entirely true. Throughout history, those in power have often lied to those they govern, and it's a crucial aspect of their operation. However, using torture, violence, false flag operations, and being an adversary to one's own people isn't necessary, except when it's deemed necessary for the "greater good." It's a dark rabbit hole that can shatter one's faith in society, and even asking questions can lead you down that path. Therefore, most of us turn a blind eye to it. Undermining one authority can undermine the credibility of all authority because all authority is built on faulty logic and falsehoods, despite being a necessary component of a functioning state. I forgot to mention this sucks.
- boppo1 3y ago
  > all authority is built on faulty logic and falsehoods That’s a big claim. If you’re talking about current national and state-level governments, sure, granted. But there is plenty of legitimate authority out there.

drc500free 3y ago

Different contexts require different paradigms. For example, you can't operate in a war if you require your soldiers to arrest everyone who is shooting at them and collect evidence for an eventual trial. You also can't operate as even a regional power (let alone a global superpower) without keeping tabs on your adversaries. The difficulty is in structuring agencies that have to follow different paradigms and determining how they should interact. One key bifurcation is supposed to be that intelligence services face outward, dealing with people who don't have constitutional protection because they are not residents or citizens. That outward focus has gotten muddied by the focus on preventing domestic terror attacks, the reality that much of the internet's physical infrastructure exists within our borders, and the difficulty in automatically determining the nationality of online personas.

pyuser583 3y ago

The constitution does exist in those environments. Lawyers and judges review plans for covert action, assessing whether it’s constitutional, authorized by congress, and in accordance with executive policy.