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It's a crap argument. We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. We don't have evide

It's a crap argument. We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. We don't have evidence that most countries use such strategies. It's like claiming that Japan has the worst ninjas since good ninjas don't expose themselves and we haven't heard anything about other countries' ninjas.

bllguo 3y ago
you literally just scrolled past several comments with evidence to make this reply. not to mention how naive one's priors must be to think no western actors engage in these activities, given everything else we know about the US espionage apparatus and foreign propaganda efforts
- tormeh 3y ago
  If you employ hundreds of forum trolls at minimum wage it tends to get out eventually. Of course the US does psyops. It’s the trolling part that’s the question.
- chrysler 3y ago
  This cynical take ignores that in free societies, such efforts are far less effective than in closed societies with no free media and no tradition of civic participation and civil disobedience. COVID showed that very well.
  - mistermann 3y ago
    Watch out for correlation versus causation though.
- bjourne 3y ago
  You put words in my mouth by changing the quantifier from "western governments" to "no western actors". And yes we do know a lot about how the US conducts espionage, yet we don't have evidence of state-backed troll armies.
CapstanRoller 3y ago
>We don't have evidence >we haven't heard anything Who is "we"? >Forced teaming: establishes premature trust by association. Examples: "We're some team." and "How are we going to handle this?" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forced_teaming https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forced_teaming https://archive.is/zWnZf https://archive.is/zWnZf
mistermann 3y ago
> It's a crap argument. We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. Whether they do it is orthogonal to the particular point in this subthread: "I am under the impression that western governments don't do this." > We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. We seem to have knowledge that it occurs more than zero. What we do not have is evidence for most of the specific claims in the media, which tend to provide either zero evidence, or link to the "wild card" single case where Russia "was" caught engaging in it. > We don't have evidence that most countries use such strategies. You are describing your opinion about what evidence "we" have. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative > It's like claiming that Japan has the worst ninjas since good ninjas don't expose themselves and we haven't heard anything about other countries' ninjas. In what way do you believe that it is like this? For example, it is also like having ham and cheese sandwiches for brunch, in that it involves human beings.

bllguo 3y ago

you literally just scrolled past several comments with evidence to make this reply. not to mention how naive one's priors must be to think no western actors engage in these activities, given everything else we know about the US espionage apparatus and foreign propaganda efforts

tormeh 3y ago
If you employ hundreds of forum trolls at minimum wage it tends to get out eventually. Of course the US does psyops. It’s the trolling part that’s the question.
chrysler 3y ago
This cynical take ignores that in free societies, such efforts are far less effective than in closed societies with no free media and no tradition of civic participation and civil disobedience. COVID showed that very well.
- mistermann 3y ago
  Watch out for correlation versus causation though.
bjourne 3y ago
You put words in my mouth by changing the quantifier from "western governments" to "no western actors". And yes we do know a lot about how the US conducts espionage, yet we don't have evidence of state-backed troll armies.

CapstanRoller 3y ago

>We don't have evidence >we haven't heard anything Who is "we"? >Forced teaming: establishes premature trust by association. Examples: "We're some team." and "How are we going to handle this?" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forced_teaming https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forced_teaming https://archive.is/zWnZf https://archive.is/zWnZf

mistermann 3y ago

> It's a crap argument. We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. Whether they do it is orthogonal to the particular point in this subthread: "I am under the impression that western governments don't do this." > We have evidence that certain states -- China, Russia, Israel, Vietnamn, etc. -- employs state-sponsored troll groups. We seem to have knowledge that it occurs more than zero. What we do not have is evidence for most of the specific claims in the media, which tend to provide either zero evidence, or link to the "wild card" single case where Russia "was" caught engaging in it. > We don't have evidence that most countries use such strategies. You are describing your opinion about what evidence "we" have. https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proving_a_negative > It's like claiming that Japan has the worst ninjas since good ninjas don't expose themselves and we haven't heard anything about other countries' ninjas. In what way do you believe that it is like this? For example, it is also like having ham and cheese sandwiches for brunch, in that it involves human beings.