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Transportation can be carbon neutral. So you can remove that from equation. At least there are many ways people are trying to reduce transportation carbon emiss

Transportation can be carbon neutral. So you can remove that from equation. At least there are many ways people are trying to reduce transportation carbon emissions to as close to zero as possible.

moffkalast 3y ago
It can be. But is it? Will it be any time soon? Isn't the Tesla Semi the only EV truck on the market and isn't being produced in any major quantities yet? It'll probably be decades before any of those reach your average concrete production site where they're still using trucks from the 90s.
- zardo 3y ago
  > Isn't the Tesla Semi the only EV truck on the market. At this point, I don't think anyone that makes a heavy duty truck doesn't sell an EV version. Volvo started selling an EV concrete mixer this year.
- vel0city 3y ago
  There are many truck manufacturers shipping trucks today. The Teslas that Frito Lay received weren't their first EV trucks, they had been operating EV trucks before they received the Teslas. https://www.teslarati.com/daimler-freightliner-ecascadia-penske-deliveries/ https://www.teslarati.com/daimler-freightliner-ecascadia-pen... https://afdc.energy.gov/case/404 https://afdc.energy.gov/case/404
  - throwawaylinux 3y ago
    Even if you buy carbon neutral electricity, increasing the demand for it will end up increasing carbon positive electricity production (in the large scheme of things). And we'll ignore carbon to manufacture the truck and create and maintain the roads, warehouses, and other transport infrastructure.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Depending on the vehicle and the source energy the break even on manufacturing may only be a couple of years on most emissions. I think most vehicles are on the road for several years. EVs are a lot more energy efficient to operate. The per-mile CO2 emissions for my EV are definitely less than an equivalent ICE even if it was powered 100% by combined cycle natural gas. But its powered by like 30%+ renewable which have overall lifetime emissions far less than even a CCNG plant. Sure, the EV had higher emissions to be built but it's probably already reached its break-even point. And that's ignoring the benefits to local air quality. Commercial trucks have absolutely terrible levels of local emissions which are massively reduced. Far better to have the emissions happen at a centralized CCNG plant where they have a good opportunity for scrubbing and being in an overall less impactful area.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Well I'll be damned you're right, there's even more although a fair few are apparently hydrogen hybrids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0HO3nh5b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0HO3nh5b4 This honestly feels like I slipped into a separate timeline when I wasn't watching, last I heard of the topic Nikola was a pump and dump scam, everyone seemed sceptical about battery mass lowering payload to useless levels and range being crap, these things requiring beyond megawatt chargers to get reasonable charging times, you name it. That's somehow all gotten solved in the past few years?! I mean I'm all for it, just seems almost impossible to believe.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      I will say, Frito Lay is probably a dream match. They've got massive local delivery of extremely low density products. Almost perfectly suited for EV. I don't imagine all loads are perfectly suited for EV semis, I imagine we'll continue to have a mix of different technologies for a while. Companies will do what makes economic sense.
palata 3y ago
Nothing that uses energy can reasonably be carbon neutral in a world that depends mostly on fossil fuels. Transportation uses energy, therefore transportation is not carbon neutral.
- BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
  The comment didn't say "transportation is carbon neutral", they said it can be. You point out that the world depends "mostly" on fossil fuels, which correctly implies that there are instances in the world where this isn't the case. e.g. Transportation using EVs that get all of their charging from a solar installation.
  - palata 3y ago
    Respectfully, you're wrong. How are the solar panels built? How is the material extracted, modified, transported? How was the road you use built? How was your EV built? You can't just say "look, I am carbon neutral because I consider that the carbon that was extracted to make my electricity counts for somebody else", that's just naive. Either you live in a carbon neutral world, or you don't. Fact is, we are not even remotely close to living in a carbon neutral world, and renewable energy does not remotely promise to replace fossil fuels. Hence the more energy you use, the bigger your carbon footprint. We need to use less energy, that's all. There is no green energy.
    - palata 3y ago
      There are two things that really need to be accepted: First, we are living a mass extinction, and that's not because of climate change. Species disappear essentially because of habitat loss, pollution, pesticides, deforestation, etc. The mass extinction is due to how we live with all that cheap energy we have. Finding an infinite clean energy would not change that. Hence we need to use less energy. Second, fossil fuels are screwing up the climate, which will add to the biodiversity problem we already have. But this is just getting started. The thing is that we don't have a solution to replace fossil fuels at scale. And if we did, that would still leave us in a mass extinction. Hence we need to use less energy. Technology is not the solution, it's mostly the problem. We need to do less with less. Urgently.

Transportation can be carbon neutral. So you can remove that from equation. At least there are many ways people are trying to reduce transportation carbon emissions to as close to zero as possible.

moffkalast 3y ago

It can be. But is it? Will it be any time soon? Isn't the Tesla Semi the only EV truck on the market and isn't being produced in any major quantities yet? It'll probably be decades before any of those reach your average concrete production site where they're still using trucks from the 90s.

zardo 3y ago
> Isn't the Tesla Semi the only EV truck on the market. At this point, I don't think anyone that makes a heavy duty truck doesn't sell an EV version. Volvo started selling an EV concrete mixer this year.
vel0city 3y ago
There are many truck manufacturers shipping trucks today. The Teslas that Frito Lay received weren't their first EV trucks, they had been operating EV trucks before they received the Teslas. https://www.teslarati.com/daimler-freightliner-ecascadia-penske-deliveries/ https://www.teslarati.com/daimler-freightliner-ecascadia-pen... https://afdc.energy.gov/case/404 https://afdc.energy.gov/case/404
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  Even if you buy carbon neutral electricity, increasing the demand for it will end up increasing carbon positive electricity production (in the large scheme of things). And we'll ignore carbon to manufacture the truck and create and maintain the roads, warehouses, and other transport infrastructure.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    Depending on the vehicle and the source energy the break even on manufacturing may only be a couple of years on most emissions. I think most vehicles are on the road for several years. EVs are a lot more energy efficient to operate. The per-mile CO2 emissions for my EV are definitely less than an equivalent ICE even if it was powered 100% by combined cycle natural gas. But its powered by like 30%+ renewable which have overall lifetime emissions far less than even a CCNG plant. Sure, the EV had higher emissions to be built but it's probably already reached its break-even point. And that's ignoring the benefits to local air quality. Commercial trucks have absolutely terrible levels of local emissions which are massively reduced. Far better to have the emissions happen at a centralized CCNG plant where they have a good opportunity for scrubbing and being in an overall less impactful area.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Well I'll be damned you're right, there's even more although a fair few are apparently hydrogen hybrids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0HO3nh5b4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc0HO3nh5b4 This honestly feels like I slipped into a separate timeline when I wasn't watching, last I heard of the topic Nikola was a pump and dump scam, everyone seemed sceptical about battery mass lowering payload to useless levels and range being crap, these things requiring beyond megawatt chargers to get reasonable charging times, you name it. That's somehow all gotten solved in the past few years?! I mean I'm all for it, just seems almost impossible to believe.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    I will say, Frito Lay is probably a dream match. They've got massive local delivery of extremely low density products. Almost perfectly suited for EV. I don't imagine all loads are perfectly suited for EV semis, I imagine we'll continue to have a mix of different technologies for a while. Companies will do what makes economic sense.

palata 3y ago

Nothing that uses energy can reasonably be carbon neutral in a world that depends mostly on fossil fuels. Transportation uses energy, therefore transportation is not carbon neutral.

BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
The comment didn't say "transportation is carbon neutral", they said it can be. You point out that the world depends "mostly" on fossil fuels, which correctly implies that there are instances in the world where this isn't the case. e.g. Transportation using EVs that get all of their charging from a solar installation.
- palata 3y ago
  Respectfully, you're wrong. How are the solar panels built? How is the material extracted, modified, transported? How was the road you use built? How was your EV built? You can't just say "look, I am carbon neutral because I consider that the carbon that was extracted to make my electricity counts for somebody else", that's just naive. Either you live in a carbon neutral world, or you don't. Fact is, we are not even remotely close to living in a carbon neutral world, and renewable energy does not remotely promise to replace fossil fuels. Hence the more energy you use, the bigger your carbon footprint. We need to use less energy, that's all. There is no green energy.
  - palata 3y ago
    There are two things that really need to be accepted: First, we are living a mass extinction, and that's not because of climate change. Species disappear essentially because of habitat loss, pollution, pesticides, deforestation, etc. The mass extinction is due to how we live with all that cheap energy we have. Finding an infinite clean energy would not change that. Hence we need to use less energy. Second, fossil fuels are screwing up the climate, which will add to the biodiversity problem we already have. But this is just getting started. The thing is that we don't have a solution to replace fossil fuels at scale. And if we did, that would still leave us in a mass extinction. Hence we need to use less energy. Technology is not the solution, it's mostly the problem. We need to do less with less. Urgently.