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No societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic. Every societal consensus believes itself to be the fountain of net progress. And ev

No societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic. Every societal consensus believes itself to be the fountain of net progress. And every societal consensus looks on its predecessors and peers as hairy barbarians.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> No societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic Plenty of ancient civilisations celebrated their cruelty and capacity to deal violence as a competitive advantage (e.g. the Spartans, Vikings, Nazis, Mongols and Aztecs, et cetera). Even contemporary American society celebrates its military power. (No civilization celebrates its chaos, almost by definition, as that’s the antithesis of statehood.)
- dmreedy 3y ago
  Yep that's sort of what I mean. Cruelty is something inflicted on the enemy and the other. Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within". And especially in the "view from the top". But most of them are very cruel, within and without.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within" Spartans, Nazis and Aztecs were proudly cruel to their own. Hyper-masculine societies have historically celebrated this as a way of culling the weak from their ranks, a necessary evil. If anything, not being an honour-bound and sacrificial culture is something of a modern phenomenon.
    - dmreedy 3y ago
      You're exactly right; all I mean to say is, consider that exact point through the lens of how we cull our own weak, and the perceived necessity of it.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > consider that exact point through the lens of how we cull our own weak, and the perceived necessity of it We're comparing dividends to child sacrifice. If that doesn't encapsulate progress, I don't know what does.
        dmreedy 3y ago
        I am comparing child sacrifice to the externalities of a dividends-driven system. We may not kill our children with knives, but we certainly let them starve.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > We may not kill our children with knives, but we certainly let them starve This is hyperbole. We have hungry kids in America, and that's a tragedy. But they're not dying en masse, and we're certainly not celebrating that as a necessary sacrifice.
        dmreedy 3y ago
        Neither were the purported child sacrifices dying en masse in Aztec civilization. We absolutely celebrate the slow death of the poor as a necessary sacrifice in the face of economic growth and dividends. Just not always in the same breath. The fittest grow and the weakest adapt, or don't. Believing that when they don't is a tragedy, is not an effective way of mitigating tragedy, and indeed can serve as an affirming and normalizing act in and of itself. "That's a tragedy, but that's the way it is"
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Jochim 3y ago
  They don't believe they're celebrating cruelty, and most are unlikely to acknowledge it as such. Invade Iraq? "Justified" revenge for a guy from Saudi Arabia attacking a building. Torture a random dude grabbed from the middle east? He must have been doing something wrong. Drone bomb a wedding? Don't make the mistake of living in a country the US thinks might have a terrorist. Kill a black guy? "He looked suspicious" or "he had a criminal record".
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    You're describing events against which there has been massive, in some cases politically upheaving, backlash. That's not the same as a core cultural tenet.
- Ancalagon 3y ago
  [flagged]
tomp 3y ago
It's not about belief, it's about facts. https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better
- dmreedy 3y ago
  Facts measured by whom, to what end, and how far? This is a single metric. Number goes up. What other numbers went up? What numbers went down? What do these directions mean? It does seem like fewer child deaths is a good thing. It does seem like modern medicine in general is probably a really good thing. There are a lot of other things in this world that are good things. I'm not trying to deny goodness here. Just asking for more perspective, to better mitigate hubris.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> No societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic Plenty of ancient civilisations celebrated their cruelty and capacity to deal violence as a competitive advantage (e.g. the Spartans, Vikings, Nazis, Mongols and Aztecs, et cetera). Even contemporary American society celebrates its military power. (No civilization celebrates its chaos, almost by definition, as that’s the antithesis of statehood.)

dmreedy 3y ago
Yep that's sort of what I mean. Cruelty is something inflicted on the enemy and the other. Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within". And especially in the "view from the top". But most of them are very cruel, within and without.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within" Spartans, Nazis and Aztecs were proudly cruel to their own. Hyper-masculine societies have historically celebrated this as a way of culling the weak from their ranks, a necessary evil. If anything, not being an honour-bound and sacrificial culture is something of a modern phenomenon.
  - dmreedy 3y ago
    You're exactly right; all I mean to say is, consider that exact point through the lens of how we cull our own weak, and the perceived necessity of it.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > consider that exact point through the lens of how we cull our own weak, and the perceived necessity of it We're comparing dividends to child sacrifice. If that doesn't encapsulate progress, I don't know what does.
      - dmreedy 3y ago
        I am comparing child sacrifice to the externalities of a dividends-driven system. We may not kill our children with knives, but we certainly let them starve.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > We may not kill our children with knives, but we certainly let them starve This is hyperbole. We have hungry kids in America, and that's a tragedy. But they're not dying en masse, and we're certainly not celebrating that as a necessary sacrifice.
        dmreedy 3y ago
        Neither were the purported child sacrifices dying en masse in Aztec civilization. We absolutely celebrate the slow death of the poor as a necessary sacrifice in the face of economic growth and dividends. Just not always in the same breath. The fittest grow and the weakest adapt, or don't. Believing that when they don't is a tragedy, is not an effective way of mitigating tragedy, and indeed can serve as an affirming and normalizing act in and of itself. "That's a tragedy, but that's the way it is"
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Jochim 3y ago
They don't believe they're celebrating cruelty, and most are unlikely to acknowledge it as such. Invade Iraq? "Justified" revenge for a guy from Saudi Arabia attacking a building. Torture a random dude grabbed from the middle east? He must have been doing something wrong. Drone bomb a wedding? Don't make the mistake of living in a country the US thinks might have a terrorist. Kill a black guy? "He looked suspicious" or "he had a criminal record".
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  You're describing events against which there has been massive, in some cases politically upheaving, backlash. That's not the same as a core cultural tenet.
Ancalagon 3y ago
[flagged]

tomp 3y ago

It's not about belief, it's about facts. https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better

dmreedy 3y ago
Facts measured by whom, to what end, and how far? This is a single metric. Number goes up. What other numbers went up? What numbers went down? What do these directions mean? It does seem like fewer child deaths is a good thing. It does seem like modern medicine in general is probably a really good thing. There are a lot of other things in this world that are good things. I'm not trying to deny goodness here. Just asking for more perspective, to better mitigate hubris.