7 ms·

Excerpt: > This is enshittification: Surpluses are first directed to users; then, once they're locked in, surpluses go to suppliers; then once they're locked i

Excerpt: > This is enshittification: Surpluses are first directed to users; then, once they're locked in, surpluses go to suppliers; then once they're locked in, the surplus is handed to shareholders and the platform becomes a useless pile of shit. From mobile app stores to Steam, from Facebook to Twitter, this is the enshittification lifecycle.

smoldesu 3y ago
Doctorow's definition of "enshittification" has always rubbed me the wrong way. Platforms oscillate between good and bad for all sorts of reasons, and the best platforms (imo) live and die on the culture of their userbase. There have been truly godawful social media systems out there, like Nintendo's Miiverse or the old Dark Souls message system (or even HN, in a way). They're still immensely fun to use, though - mostly because of the culture of their userbase. You could argue they might leave if their surpluses are directed back to the shareholders, but many of these platforms don't need much surplus to exist in the first place. The $40 billion Twitter valuation is a joke, it's undeniable that there is some form of imposed value outside of what the company is actually worth. In other words, the enshittification of TikTok correlates directly with the enshittification of it's userbase. Same goes for all of these other lowest-common-denominator platforms. Plus, his examples seem to contradict his thesis: - Mobile app stores have always been controlled by their vendors, there is no illusion of non-shittification there - Steam has no real shareholders, and exploits suppliers to cater to users and and themselves - Facebook has a half-dozen different platforms that have all arguably launched in pre-shittified states - Twitter lives a constant repeating lifecycle of enshittification and resurrection, mostly because most people can't be bothered to find an alternative It all feels like trying to unify these concepts under one formal thesis of shit is a bad idea. Our expectations of the internet are constantly changing, and our cultural landscape is shifting to realize that we've had a pretty raw deal for the past decade. Now we want to lash out at the platform-holders, when deep-down we know that we're partially to blame. I just wish Doctorow didn't use this idea to peddle the idea of helplessness to Twitter/Tumblr/Whatever users. There are alternatives, TikTok should not be the be-all-end-all of internet interaction anyways.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- vkou 3y ago
  There's no resurrection to Twitter, its been a cesspit since day one, it's just that there's no meaningful competitor. I'll agree on Steam - it has its problems, but the users, as a rule of thumb, don't hate it. It works, its reasonably convenient, most users don't get burnt by its policies, and nobody wants to install crap like Origin and UPlay.
  - Quikinterp 3y ago
    I'd even go as far as saying that I like steam, and that I would rather use it and have it exist than not. Steam/valve also does a lot of things that everyone benefits from. Amazing controller support, Proton, etc. Even some minor things like allowing p2p games to route through their servers so players IPs aren't shown to others
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Look, I hate Twitter. I've tried using it 4 different times over the past decade and it never stuck with me. For everyone else though, it's like digital crack. It was the place to be for a while, even though it's users would chafe over minor changes. And of course, there was the original Cambrian explosion of microblogging movies and blind dates and garage sales and haircuts et. al... mostly replaced today by politics and related vitriol. It's 100% the fact that there is no meaningful competitor, exacerbated by people being lazy and distrustful of other private platforms. And good - these people should be wary, and Cory Doctorow should be on his soapbox telling people how to live in a post-social-media world rather than riling them up to go yell at clouds online.
    - eertami 3y ago
      > For everyone else though, it's like digital crack I'm not sure Twitter ever was a universal thing. I barely know any people in real life that actually use it. It's only tech nerds/people working in media, and the others don't exist in real life because they don't go outside. It's easy to ignore Twitter drama completely, because nobody cares about Twitter except the people that use Twitter. Instagram and TikTok however really did capture the mainstream.
manmal 3y ago
I may be out of the loop, but what’s the issue with Steam? It seems like it hasn’t changed that much over the decades?
- eulers_secret 3y ago
  May be because they're a private company, so there's no pressure from shareholders to "extract the value from the brand"
  - Runepika 3y ago
    Isn't Microsoft doing a piss-poor job of that with Xbox Games Pass?
    - danudey 3y ago
      Game Pass is doing a lot better than the XBox itself is. I honestly think that Microsoft needs to pull a Sega, stop making hardware and release their games on other people's hardware instead. Game Pass on PS5 would get a lot of subscribers. Halo on PS5 would do insanely well.
      - fbdab103 3y ago
        Is Xbox losing money? Even if it is not mega-profitable, having a consumer device sitting in many living rooms has got to be worth something. If nothing else, as a gateway to Game Pass. If you are looking at weirdo things - Microsoft still makes keyboards. That has to be such a minuscule part of the business as to be completely irrelevant.
- hef19898 3y ago
  They did add a bunch of achievements for each gamr, collectables and in game purchases along with a plattform to trade those. But it is not on the nose, and mostly cosmetic stuff like skins as far as I can tell. All of that is offset by Steams drive to get more and more games playable under Linux so.
EGreg 3y ago
This is why utility tokens can be a far superior way to fund a project. The network can end up being owned by its users in the end - more akin to social democracy than capitalism. It’s the difference between disney dollars vs shares in Disney Corp.

smoldesu 3y ago

Doctorow's definition of "enshittification" has always rubbed me the wrong way. Platforms oscillate between good and bad for all sorts of reasons, and the best platforms (imo) live and die on the culture of their userbase. There have been truly godawful social media systems out there, like Nintendo's Miiverse or the old Dark Souls message system (or even HN, in a way). They're still immensely fun to use, though - mostly because of the culture of their userbase. You could argue they might leave if their surpluses are directed back to the shareholders, but many of these platforms don't need much surplus to exist in the first place. The $40 billion Twitter valuation is a joke, it's undeniable that there is some form of imposed value outside of what the company is actually worth. In other words, the enshittification of TikTok correlates directly with the enshittification of it's userbase. Same goes for all of these other lowest-common-denominator platforms. Plus, his examples seem to contradict his thesis: - Mobile app stores have always been controlled by their vendors, there is no illusion of non-shittification there - Steam has no real shareholders, and exploits suppliers to cater to users and and themselves - Facebook has a half-dozen different platforms that have all arguably launched in pre-shittified states - Twitter lives a constant repeating lifecycle of enshittification and resurrection, mostly because most people can't be bothered to find an alternative It all feels like trying to unify these concepts under one formal thesis of shit is a bad idea. Our expectations of the internet are constantly changing, and our cultural landscape is shifting to realize that we've had a pretty raw deal for the past decade. Now we want to lash out at the platform-holders, when deep-down we know that we're partially to blame. I just wish Doctorow didn't use this idea to peddle the idea of helplessness to Twitter/Tumblr/Whatever users. There are alternatives, TikTok should not be the be-all-end-all of internet interaction anyways.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vkou 3y ago
There's no resurrection to Twitter, its been a cesspit since day one, it's just that there's no meaningful competitor. I'll agree on Steam - it has its problems, but the users, as a rule of thumb, don't hate it. It works, its reasonably convenient, most users don't get burnt by its policies, and nobody wants to install crap like Origin and UPlay.
- Quikinterp 3y ago
  I'd even go as far as saying that I like steam, and that I would rather use it and have it exist than not. Steam/valve also does a lot of things that everyone benefits from. Amazing controller support, Proton, etc. Even some minor things like allowing p2p games to route through their servers so players IPs aren't shown to others
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Look, I hate Twitter. I've tried using it 4 different times over the past decade and it never stuck with me. For everyone else though, it's like digital crack. It was the place to be for a while, even though it's users would chafe over minor changes. And of course, there was the original Cambrian explosion of microblogging movies and blind dates and garage sales and haircuts et. al... mostly replaced today by politics and related vitriol. It's 100% the fact that there is no meaningful competitor, exacerbated by people being lazy and distrustful of other private platforms. And good - these people should be wary, and Cory Doctorow should be on his soapbox telling people how to live in a post-social-media world rather than riling them up to go yell at clouds online.
  - eertami 3y ago
    > For everyone else though, it's like digital crack I'm not sure Twitter ever was a universal thing. I barely know any people in real life that actually use it. It's only tech nerds/people working in media, and the others don't exist in real life because they don't go outside. It's easy to ignore Twitter drama completely, because nobody cares about Twitter except the people that use Twitter. Instagram and TikTok however really did capture the mainstream.

manmal 3y ago

I may be out of the loop, but what’s the issue with Steam? It seems like it hasn’t changed that much over the decades?

eulers_secret 3y ago
May be because they're a private company, so there's no pressure from shareholders to "extract the value from the brand"
- Runepika 3y ago
  Isn't Microsoft doing a piss-poor job of that with Xbox Games Pass?
  - danudey 3y ago
    Game Pass is doing a lot better than the XBox itself is. I honestly think that Microsoft needs to pull a Sega, stop making hardware and release their games on other people's hardware instead. Game Pass on PS5 would get a lot of subscribers. Halo on PS5 would do insanely well.
    - fbdab103 3y ago
      Is Xbox losing money? Even if it is not mega-profitable, having a consumer device sitting in many living rooms has got to be worth something. If nothing else, as a gateway to Game Pass. If you are looking at weirdo things - Microsoft still makes keyboards. That has to be such a minuscule part of the business as to be completely irrelevant.
hef19898 3y ago
They did add a bunch of achievements for each gamr, collectables and in game purchases along with a plattform to trade those. But it is not on the nose, and mostly cosmetic stuff like skins as far as I can tell. All of that is offset by Steams drive to get more and more games playable under Linux so.

EGreg 3y ago

This is why utility tokens can be a far superior way to fund a project. The network can end up being owned by its users in the end - more akin to social democracy than capitalism. It’s the difference between disney dollars vs shares in Disney Corp.