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And a glorious world it is. We had to go through millenia of chaos and violence before we found a system which can channel greed and status and power seeking in
by martindbp 3y ago
And a glorious world it is. We had to go through millenia of chaos and violence before we found a system which can channel greed and status and power seeking into something mostly productive.
- amrocha 3y agoUnless you're poor, in which case you just die I guess
- dartharva 3y agoWell that has never not been true.
- martindbp 3y agohttps://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/dataviz-remake-fall-extreme-poverty-best-news-world https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/dataviz-remake-fall-ext...
- amrocha 3y agoThe world bank! That classic charitable organization that definitely does not make predatory loans to poor countries and force them to privatize their industries
- HDThoreaun 3y agoThere has never been a better time to be poor.
- amrocha 3y agoHow about you give it a try and let me know how it goes
- HDThoreaun 3y agoBeing poor sucks. But it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be. And it's getting better every year.
- greenie_beans 3y agowe're still going through chaos and violence though?
- martindbp 3y agoMostly caused by parts of the world not governed by the rule of law and capitalism (and democracy of course).
- greenie_beans 3y agointernally, the united states is very chaotic and violent. and the united states has caused a ton of chaos and violence throughout the world. arguably they're one of the main causes of instability in a lot of countries.
- martindbp 3y agoThe US has made some questionable choices, but here I'm talking about not only the US, but Europe, Oceania, Japan, South Korea etc. As a European though I'm eternally grateful that the one country to become the global hegemon was the US. I don't think the world realizes how lucky it is. Might sound like a fanboy but there's plenty about the US I don't like, moved back home because of those things even, but you have to look at the bigger picture here.
- greenie_beans 3y agofair! thanks for sharing your non-US perspective
- dmreedy 3y agoNo societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic. Every societal consensus believes itself to be the fountain of net progress. And every societal consensus looks on its predecessors and peers as hairy barbarians.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> No societal consensus believes itself to be cruel and violent and chaotic Plenty of ancient civilisations celebrated their cruelty and capacity to deal violence as a competitive advantage (e.g. the Spartans, Vikings, Nazis, Mongols and Aztecs, et cetera). Even contemporary American society celebrates its military power. (No civilization celebrates its chaos, almost by definition, as that’s the antithesis of statehood.)
- dmreedy 3y agoYep that's sort of what I mean. Cruelty is something inflicted on the enemy and the other. Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within". And especially in the "view from the top". But most of them are very cruel, within and without.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Cruelty inflicted on the citizen is systematized or justified, and does not read as cruelty in the "view from within" Spartans, Nazis and Aztecs were proudly cruel to their own. Hyper-masculine societies have historically celebrated this as a way of culling the weak from their ranks, a necessary evil. If anything, not being an honour-bound and sacrificial culture is something of a modern phenomenon.
- dmreedy 3y agoYou're exactly right; all I mean to say is, consider that exact point through the lens of how we cull our own weak, and the perceived necessity of it.
- 93po 3y ago"productive" I would guess that maybe less than a third of the total workforce is doing things we actually want and need as a society, and 90% of that third are jobs that are close to being automated. As one example, the US alone has nearly $300 billion a year in revenue for the advertising industry and employees a quarter million people. When looking at the list of things humanity needs, ads aren't very high. There is a lot that exists to facilitate the other shit that doesn't need to exist. point of clarification: people have value regardless of their profession and regardless of whether it becomes automated
- saltcured 3y agoI think the earlier post is considering capitalism as "more productive" than acquiring riches and resources the old fashioned way: killing your neighbors or cousins and taking their stuff.
- 93po 3y agoI would counter that the chaos and violence is different but still there.
- saltcured 3y agoSure, but is it more productive to record winnings with accountants' pens instead of soldiers' bullets? At scale, is "less destructive" a synonym for "more productive"..?
- 93po 3y agoMore than 12 million people die every year from unhealthy environents according to WHO: https://www.who.int/news/item/15-03-2016-an-estimated-12-6-million-deaths-each-year-are-attributable-to-unhealthy-environments https://www.who.int/news/item/15-03-2016-an-estimated-12-6-m... Capitalism has a cost, and it's extremely high. Higher than any war in history.