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The problem isn't self-promotion per se, the problem is the sheer amount of self-promotion that occurs when it is allowed. If any is permitted, then often all i

The problem isn't self-promotion per se, the problem is the sheer amount of self-promotion that occurs when it is allowed. If any is permitted, then often all is permitted, and a forum becomes inundated with people vying for attention. Classic tragedy of the commons.

DoreenMichele 3y ago
You are missing the point. Entirely. If you know of an independent creator and they do something you like, share it.
- DamnInteresting 3y ago
  Entirely you say? I was addressing this portion of your comment: > I'm pretty darn sure I'm not the only independent content creator being largely ignored, attacked for "self promotion" I agree whole-heartedly with your share it sentiment, but if that was your original point, it was unfortunately obscured.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    It's a no win situation. People ignore independent creatives while consuming more established and popular media. Share your own work, people attack you. Meanwhile if you don't share your work, no one sees it. Then you read articles whining about how hard it is to find interesting content and escape the prison of social media. It's not because independent creators don't exist. But there are a lot of barriers to getting traction at all. And if you try to even comment on the topic in a discussion of this sort, odds are good people will act like it is a nefarious plot to self promote. It's maddening.
    - DamnInteresting 3y ago
      > It's a no win situation Exactly! That's what I meant by tragedy of the commons. It sucks for everybody, consumers and creators alike, and there is no satisfactory solution. I empathize, I am an independent creator myself, and I know the pain. For what it's worth, it helped me to change my mindset from sprint to marathon, and accept that success, if any, would be slow. I also feel that the modern web's lust for stats is doing more harm than good. If one's follower count isn't growing, the dopamine dries up. Falling listener stats? Enjoy that depression! Better to ignore the stats and use "is this still worthwhile" as one's compass when possible.
    - qup 3y ago
      Why do you keep using the term "whining" to reference the article?
      - chrbutler 3y ago
        Hah, I have had the same thought a few times. I didn't think I was whining!
      - DoreenMichele 3y ago
        I've been on HN a lot of years. Lots of people here have money and as a group most of them consistently object to essentially any means to monetize content, pay content creators, etc while denying that this amounts to expecting slave labor from writers and also decrying the tragic lack of good quality writing. I used to try to consistently point out such patterns while being personally attacked, told to stop whining, stop expecting to make money from writing as it's simply not realistic and "get a real job." People here want a quality experience online. And they want it for free (including ad-free). Often while they, themselves, make good money for writing the code that runs the internet. Somehow, that's different.
        qup 3y ago
        Well let me respond, since maybe I'm one of those guys. You've fundamentally misunderstood what I want. If a "writer" wrote it as part of their job, I don't want to read it. I mean, I might, but that's not what I would be "whining" about here. I've kept blogs most of my life. I'm after similar content to what I would post. I don't care to read whatever you want to get paid to write. No offense, I'm sure it's great and worth all the money. The quality experience is enjoying other people's gardens, and the point of having the garden is to share it with other people, not to have a ticket booth or a billboard. At least, that's the case at my blog. Which I've never shared here, and nobody else ever has either. Which I find totally fine.
        DoreenMichele 3y ago
        You seem to be assuming some things different from my reality. I make very little money from blogging. I took ads off years ago. It's not some kind of paid gig shilling for some product or whatever. I have a Patreon that makes too little and I take tips. I try to write what I think is meaningful. My writing has repeatedly made the front page of HN, often without making a dime. I've stopped posting it here. I'm tired of feeling kicked in the teeth for "self promoting". Journalism is in trouble. This undermines political freedom. Etc. And yet people just expect high traffic to pay the bills, which it can if your monetization strategy is ads, but the HN crowd is fond of ad blockers and vocally critical of ads. Anyway, I don't care to argue it. You asked a question. I replies. This conversation is most likely a waste of time. Adieu.
pixl97 3y ago
> and a forum becomes inundated with people vying for attention You mean spam. Any system in which does not quickly and harshly punish spam will quickly be crushed under its weight ruining the perceived value that attracted users to the service in the first place.

DoreenMichele 3y ago

You are missing the point. Entirely. If you know of an independent creator and they do something you like, share it.

DamnInteresting 3y ago
Entirely you say? I was addressing this portion of your comment: > I'm pretty darn sure I'm not the only independent content creator being largely ignored, attacked for "self promotion" I agree whole-heartedly with your share it sentiment, but if that was your original point, it was unfortunately obscured.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  It's a no win situation. People ignore independent creatives while consuming more established and popular media. Share your own work, people attack you. Meanwhile if you don't share your work, no one sees it. Then you read articles whining about how hard it is to find interesting content and escape the prison of social media. It's not because independent creators don't exist. But there are a lot of barriers to getting traction at all. And if you try to even comment on the topic in a discussion of this sort, odds are good people will act like it is a nefarious plot to self promote. It's maddening.
  - DamnInteresting 3y ago
    > It's a no win situation Exactly! That's what I meant by tragedy of the commons. It sucks for everybody, consumers and creators alike, and there is no satisfactory solution. I empathize, I am an independent creator myself, and I know the pain. For what it's worth, it helped me to change my mindset from sprint to marathon, and accept that success, if any, would be slow. I also feel that the modern web's lust for stats is doing more harm than good. If one's follower count isn't growing, the dopamine dries up. Falling listener stats? Enjoy that depression! Better to ignore the stats and use "is this still worthwhile" as one's compass when possible.
  - qup 3y ago
    Why do you keep using the term "whining" to reference the article?
    - chrbutler 3y ago
      Hah, I have had the same thought a few times. I didn't think I was whining!
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      I've been on HN a lot of years. Lots of people here have money and as a group most of them consistently object to essentially any means to monetize content, pay content creators, etc while denying that this amounts to expecting slave labor from writers and also decrying the tragic lack of good quality writing. I used to try to consistently point out such patterns while being personally attacked, told to stop whining, stop expecting to make money from writing as it's simply not realistic and "get a real job." People here want a quality experience online. And they want it for free (including ad-free). Often while they, themselves, make good money for writing the code that runs the internet. Somehow, that's different.
      - qup 3y ago
        Well let me respond, since maybe I'm one of those guys. You've fundamentally misunderstood what I want. If a "writer" wrote it as part of their job, I don't want to read it. I mean, I might, but that's not what I would be "whining" about here. I've kept blogs most of my life. I'm after similar content to what I would post. I don't care to read whatever you want to get paid to write. No offense, I'm sure it's great and worth all the money. The quality experience is enjoying other people's gardens, and the point of having the garden is to share it with other people, not to have a ticket booth or a billboard. At least, that's the case at my blog. Which I've never shared here, and nobody else ever has either. Which I find totally fine.
        DoreenMichele 3y ago
        You seem to be assuming some things different from my reality. I make very little money from blogging. I took ads off years ago. It's not some kind of paid gig shilling for some product or whatever. I have a Patreon that makes too little and I take tips. I try to write what I think is meaningful. My writing has repeatedly made the front page of HN, often without making a dime. I've stopped posting it here. I'm tired of feeling kicked in the teeth for "self promoting". Journalism is in trouble. This undermines political freedom. Etc. And yet people just expect high traffic to pay the bills, which it can if your monetization strategy is ads, but the HN crowd is fond of ad blockers and vocally critical of ads. Anyway, I don't care to argue it. You asked a question. I replies. This conversation is most likely a waste of time. Adieu.

pixl97 3y ago

> and a forum becomes inundated with people vying for attention You mean spam. Any system in which does not quickly and harshly punish spam will quickly be crushed under its weight ruining the perceived value that attracted users to the service in the first place.