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> Mr. Geist also accused the government of burying the change, by putting it near the bottom of a nearly 450-page budget bill last spring. The government didn’t

> Mr. Geist also accused the government of burying the change, by putting it near the bottom of a nearly 450-page budget bill last spring. The government didn’t highlight the copyright act changes in any of its documents about that bill. So it looks like it was "debated" in an assembly. I'm using scare quotes because I'm not a big fan of burying potentially controversial changes in giant budget bills. I'm also not a fan of giant budget bills or giant bills at all for that matter.

boxed 3y ago
It's weird to me that the budget of a government is a bill at all. A budget is a budget, and a law is a law.
- citizenkeen 3y ago
  Who should decide how things are spent? My wife and I vote on our personal budget all the time.
  - boomboomsubban 3y ago
    I think their point is the budget should be passed seperate from any other laws. You don't say "we'll splurge on this vacation only if we agree to split washing the dishes. It's both or neither."
    - afterburner 3y ago
      Why do you imagine that non-budget-related issues must be packaged with the budget into the same bill? Parliament may pass as many bills as it has time to.
      - boomboomsubban 3y ago
        So politicians can say "I didn't want to extend the copyright, but the budget needed to pass." Plus, passing more things at once limits the average person's ability to take in what they are doing.
  - jhbadger 3y ago
    Do you have a child as a tie breaker? Or do you mean more discuss with each other potential purchases rather that literally vote on it, which doesn't work very well with two people.
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      > Do you have a child as a tie breaker? Thunderdome: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_Beyond_Thunderdome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_Beyond_Thunderdome
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- retrac 3y ago
  The budget is implemented with a law. There's a good reason for that. Parliament passes laws. And the budget is decided by Parliament. So they implement the budget with a law. The mechanism is fundamental to the Canadian (or UK) political system. The government, the executive branch, must have the confidence of the legislative branch, the authority to rule, which means having the support of a majority of Members of Parliament. The budget is a confidence bill; it must be debated, voted on, and pass. If it does not pass, the government has lost confidence, has no right to rule, and an election must be called. It's conceivable Parliament could implement a law that allows taxation and spending to be discretionary within a range, by the executive -- they in fact do that to give departments some emergency room. A large such allocation happened during the COVID crisis budget. But the overall year-to-year tax levels are debated and argued anyway in Parliament, so they might as well just write it directly into a new law.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > If it does not pass, the government has lost confidence, has no right to rule, and an election must be called. Generally an election is called, but theoretically the Crown may ask another political party to see they can get enough votes together to pass legislation. If the current governing party has a majority of seats, then there is obviously no way that any other party can. But if (as now) the currently governing party does not have a majority of seats and are part of a coalition/agreement, then another party could try forming a coalition. Minority governments have been relatively rare in Canada, and so the 'proper' actions on what to do during them aren't part of the cultural zeitgeist, which can lead to drama: * https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/king-byng-affair https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/king-byng-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Byng_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Byng_affair * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Canadian_parliamenta...
  - mst 3y ago
    Hence the existence of "confidence and supply" agreements where a party agrees to a loose coalition whose only pledge is to support the main party therein by voting for budgets (supply) and against no-confidence motions.
- ajb 3y ago
  This "budget" isn't a budget in the sense of a limit on spending. In a parliamentary system, the budget is a set of proposals for what to spend money on and how to raise it. So it involves a piece of legislation to adjust the government's taxation powers.
  - boxed 3y ago
    Well.. no? Because the state have other sources of money than the taxes: previous budget surplus, and loans being the most obvious ones. Taxation is one thing, the budget is another.
    - ajb 3y ago
      This could just be an annoying issue of how a word is used. Words pick up multiple meanings over time. Certainly "budget" can be used in the sense you say, but "The Budget" is a term for a political event, in the UK and probably Canada which includes other things - much as those of us who like cleanly defined terms would prefer it otherwise...
paganel 3y ago
This actually makes it worse, I think. Had the decision been taken as a result of "secret" meetings set up outside the purview of elected politicians one could have at least used the discourse that the OP uses: "They're taking these acts behind our backs!". But when burying these type of nefarious acts in a 450-page budget bill the people responsible for it all can now get back to us with: "your elected politicians voted it into law, it has all been done by the book, no nefarious act in there". And that's how trust in democracy and in the power of the people, for the people, takes another big hit.
- Xeoncross 3y ago
  > trust in democracy My favorite part is where the millionaire-billionaire politicians (that do this exact thing themselves) use this opportunity to vilify their opponents and then push for something else they want as the solution. X does something wrong, Y calls it out and raises support and then sneaks in something wrong. So the citizens get fleeced and then become pawns. It seems like this is visible in every. single. bill. that gets passed by either party in the US.
phpisthebest 3y ago
This is why all bills should be single issue, with a public comment period of 1 day per page of text before a vote is allowed
- hoosieree 3y ago
  This will just result in extremely large page sizes and extremely small font sizes.
  - clnq 3y ago
    Good. The public can reject it for obvious manipulation quickly.
    - undersuit 3y ago
      Sure they will. Now look at a picture of this kitten.
      - clnq 3y ago
        Who wouldn’t vote for the Covertly Undermining Transparency and Expanding Key Invasive Tracking Targeting You (CUTE KITTY) Act? Seems harmless enough.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    If only we could regulate the size the page and the font in the law / amendment that would create the single subject rule and/or the waiting period law
  - dudeofea 3y ago
    450 pages in one page would surpass printer DPI limits I would hope
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- chongli 3y ago

boxed 3y ago

It's weird to me that the budget of a government is a bill at all. A budget is a budget, and a law is a law.

citizenkeen 3y ago
Who should decide how things are spent? My wife and I vote on our personal budget all the time.
- boomboomsubban 3y ago
  I think their point is the budget should be passed seperate from any other laws. You don't say "we'll splurge on this vacation only if we agree to split washing the dishes. It's both or neither."
  - afterburner 3y ago
    Why do you imagine that non-budget-related issues must be packaged with the budget into the same bill? Parliament may pass as many bills as it has time to.
    - boomboomsubban 3y ago
      So politicians can say "I didn't want to extend the copyright, but the budget needed to pass." Plus, passing more things at once limits the average person's ability to take in what they are doing.
- jhbadger 3y ago
  Do you have a child as a tie breaker? Or do you mean more discuss with each other potential purchases rather that literally vote on it, which doesn't work very well with two people.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > Do you have a child as a tie breaker? Thunderdome: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_Beyond_Thunderdome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Max_Beyond_Thunderdome
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
retrac 3y ago
The budget is implemented with a law. There's a good reason for that. Parliament passes laws. And the budget is decided by Parliament. So they implement the budget with a law. The mechanism is fundamental to the Canadian (or UK) political system. The government, the executive branch, must have the confidence of the legislative branch, the authority to rule, which means having the support of a majority of Members of Parliament. The budget is a confidence bill; it must be debated, voted on, and pass. If it does not pass, the government has lost confidence, has no right to rule, and an election must be called. It's conceivable Parliament could implement a law that allows taxation and spending to be discretionary within a range, by the executive -- they in fact do that to give departments some emergency room. A large such allocation happened during the COVID crisis budget. But the overall year-to-year tax levels are debated and argued anyway in Parliament, so they might as well just write it directly into a new law.
- throw0101b 3y ago
  > If it does not pass, the government has lost confidence, has no right to rule, and an election must be called. Generally an election is called, but theoretically the Crown may ask another political party to see they can get enough votes together to pass legislation. If the current governing party has a majority of seats, then there is obviously no way that any other party can. But if (as now) the currently governing party does not have a majority of seats and are part of a coalition/agreement, then another party could try forming a coalition. Minority governments have been relatively rare in Canada, and so the 'proper' actions on what to do during them aren't part of the cultural zeitgeist, which can lead to drama: * https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/king-byng-affair https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/king-byng-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Byng_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Byng_affair * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Canadian_parliamenta...
- mst 3y ago
  Hence the existence of "confidence and supply" agreements where a party agrees to a loose coalition whose only pledge is to support the main party therein by voting for budgets (supply) and against no-confidence motions.
ajb 3y ago
This "budget" isn't a budget in the sense of a limit on spending. In a parliamentary system, the budget is a set of proposals for what to spend money on and how to raise it. So it involves a piece of legislation to adjust the government's taxation powers.
- boxed 3y ago
  Well.. no? Because the state have other sources of money than the taxes: previous budget surplus, and loans being the most obvious ones. Taxation is one thing, the budget is another.
  - ajb 3y ago
    This could just be an annoying issue of how a word is used. Words pick up multiple meanings over time. Certainly "budget" can be used in the sense you say, but "The Budget" is a term for a political event, in the UK and probably Canada which includes other things - much as those of us who like cleanly defined terms would prefer it otherwise...

paganel 3y ago

This actually makes it worse, I think. Had the decision been taken as a result of "secret" meetings set up outside the purview of elected politicians one could have at least used the discourse that the OP uses: "They're taking these acts behind our backs!". But when burying these type of nefarious acts in a 450-page budget bill the people responsible for it all can now get back to us with: "your elected politicians voted it into law, it has all been done by the book, no nefarious act in there". And that's how trust in democracy and in the power of the people, for the people, takes another big hit.

Xeoncross 3y ago
> trust in democracy My favorite part is where the millionaire-billionaire politicians (that do this exact thing themselves) use this opportunity to vilify their opponents and then push for something else they want as the solution. X does something wrong, Y calls it out and raises support and then sneaks in something wrong. So the citizens get fleeced and then become pawns. It seems like this is visible in every. single. bill. that gets passed by either party in the US.

phpisthebest 3y ago

This is why all bills should be single issue, with a public comment period of 1 day per page of text before a vote is allowed

hoosieree 3y ago
This will just result in extremely large page sizes and extremely small font sizes.
- clnq 3y ago
  Good. The public can reject it for obvious manipulation quickly.
  - undersuit 3y ago
    Sure they will. Now look at a picture of this kitten.
    - clnq 3y ago
      Who wouldn’t vote for the Covertly Undermining Transparency and Expanding Key Invasive Tracking Targeting You (CUTE KITTY) Act? Seems harmless enough.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  If only we could regulate the size the page and the font in the law / amendment that would create the single subject rule and/or the waiting period law
- dudeofea 3y ago
  450 pages in one page would surpass printer DPI limits I would hope
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
chongli 3y ago