6 ms·

Did I read that right? If you find an old coin on your land in England you could go to jail for not reporting it? So not only do you not own it, the crown owns

by jjcon 3y ago

Did I read that right? If you find an old coin on your land in England you could go to jail for not reporting it? So not only do you not own it, the crown owns it because it is ‘treasure’ and you can go to jail for not reporting the find? Huh… looking at the linked law they give you 1 day to report the finding or else risk jail time… England takes their treasure seriously I guess.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3y ago
Only certain items are covered, you have 14 days to report such items [1] 1. https://www.gov.uk/treasure https://www.gov.uk/treasure
BerislavLopac 3y ago
Can you guess why is that? ;)
Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
Quite right too, just because you paid some guy to buy their land shouldn't give you total control over any historical objects on that land. Although these guys obviously wanted to make a quick buck and to hell with history.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Nor do you get rights over human remains on your land. You may even be required to report a dead body if you find one on your land, under threat of fine and jail. If the human remains are of ancient Native American origin, then there may be other restrictions of what cane be done with the remains and any associated funerary objects. Nor (in the US) do most people get to use birds, eggs, or even feathers of 1,000+ species of birds, even if found on their land, because of endangered species law (starting with the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918). And someone may have ownership rights to the land, but not mineral rights. Therefore, land ownership clearly does not mean ownership and control of everything on the land.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Actually in countries like Portugal, you can lose ownership when that land is required for public good. You are entitled to fight in court, and if you lose, you get whatever the goverment feels right to pay for the land.
  - swexbe 3y ago
    That's pretty much every country including the US.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    That's pretty normal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain Without it, you couldn't build things like roads.
wrp 3y ago
There are a great many historical artifacts that are privately held but have been available for study. Conversation on disposition of treasures tends to conflate two issues, ownership and accessibility. I seriously doubt that anyone willing to spend six figures on some coins would be reluctant to let scholars examine them (if such ownership was legal).
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Finders need to report their find within 14 days. It's not that ot does not belong to them: if the find is deemed a treasure they are obligated to offer it to museums for purchase at a price set by a valuation committee. If museums are interested then they keep it and can do whatever they want with it.
- biorach 3y ago
  If museums are not interested then they (the metal detectorists) keep it and can do whatever they want with it.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Ah yes, of course. Too late for me to correct now.
- narcraft 3y ago
  If you are obligated to offer something for a purchase price set by a valuation committee, you do not in practice own it. The committee, though ostensibly bounded by some rules or guidelines, nonetheless could set a price different from what the market would actually bear. If they're truly offering competitive prices then the rule requiring a coin-finder to sell at the committee-determined price would be unnecessary.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    What is a competitive price for such items? IMHO, either you sell at auction to find out orr you ask experts to value. Since the sale is not on the open market they picked the second option, which is reasonable.
    - sbaiddn 3y ago
      Without a market, there is no fair evaluation of value.
vasco 3y ago
[flagged]
wslh 3y ago
This is common to most countries, not particular of England. If you find an archeological object it is part of the country patrimony. It is particularly interesting when you are working in a construction and the building is completely halted because it is in a new discovered archeological area. The spirit of this kind of laws is not only to protect the patrimony but to keep the objects within the boundaries of the country. Without these laws the objects will fly to the best buyer in the globe.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  The Netherlands lost a lot of paintings before the government stepped in and funded the Rijksmuseum. Then for a 150 years they bought as many of them back as they could. Whenever I'm in a museum abroad I always like to visit the Dutch/Flemish masters section. There are good ones in Spain but those are honourable spoils of war. The American museums are wealthy industrialists buying paintings at an auction.
  - wslh 3y ago
    In general, fine art work has a different treatment that archeological artifacts but also has a relationship with the time of ownership and where/how you find/buy it. There are also more complex cases, for example the recovery of stolen art from the Nazis.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    > There are good ones in Spain but those are honourable spoils of war. The American museums are wealthy industrialists buying paintings at an auction. Are you saying that taking paintings via violence is ethically better than buying them on the open market?
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      It’s stronger than that. ‘Honourable’ would suggest the stealing was a good thing. The post must be a joke or sarcasm surely?
    - 3y ago
Jabbles 3y ago
For comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#United_States
DrBazza 3y ago
Any treasure finds in the UK are usually passed onto archaeologists and/or historians in the first instance for study, and almost certainly end up in a museum thereafter if they have historical worth. They are allowed to be sold for profit if those criteria aren't met.
3pt14159 3y ago
Tiny nitpick, but you need to find two coins to qualify: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 I think that's the right call. A common person can find an old coin and not really think about the historical impact it has. Merely keep it on his or her shelf or bring it to a shop for some extra cash. But once you're in the realm of finding multiple coins, the onus kinda changes. There may be more, greed sets in and wanting to conceal the find is bad. Also, England doesn't "take their treasure" it buys it off of them if the museum wants to buy it and for a fair price.
- abecedarius 3y ago
  That system sounds reasonable, except that if "greed" is at all common in practice, that's good evidence the price is not fair. I followed the wikipedia link to the committee in charge but it didn't say anything about this question.
  - 3pt14159 3y ago
    If it were common, I think the press would have a field day with it, especially the international press. There should be enough pressure on both sides for this not to be a problem, but I'm not an expert in English treasure.
admissionsguy 3y ago
I know some people living in villages in Eastern Poland who regularly dig up historical coins and such on their land. They promptly hide or destroy them due to fear/unwillingness to deal with authorities. I used to be annoyed/bewildered at it, but ever since the time sitting on a bench in the park got criminalised, I get it. There is no common good in a low trust society.
- jb1991 3y ago
  > sitting on a bench in the park got criminalised What does that mean?
  - rolisz 3y ago
    COVID restrictions probably
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Or vagrancy laws.
wingspar 3y ago
Roald Dahl, of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory fame, wrote a non-fiction account about one such unreported find, the Mildenhall Treasure. The find was made during WWII. No jail time but almost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mildenhall_Treasure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mildenhall_Treasure
flir 3y ago
In Ireland you can't even use a metal detector on your own land. Yes, taking your history seriously is a good thing.
stevenwoo 3y ago
There is a hobby dedicated to using metal detectors to find treasure and a somewhat recent BBC television series about this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l51nr https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l51nr

by jjcon 3y ago

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3y ago

Only certain items are covered, you have 14 days to report such items [1] 1. https://www.gov.uk/treasure https://www.gov.uk/treasure

BerislavLopac 3y ago

Can you guess why is that? ;)

Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago

Quite right too, just because you paid some guy to buy their land shouldn't give you total control over any historical objects on that land. Although these guys obviously wanted to make a quick buck and to hell with history.

eesmith 3y ago
Nor do you get rights over human remains on your land. You may even be required to report a dead body if you find one on your land, under threat of fine and jail. If the human remains are of ancient Native American origin, then there may be other restrictions of what cane be done with the remains and any associated funerary objects. Nor (in the US) do most people get to use birds, eggs, or even feathers of 1,000+ species of birds, even if found on their land, because of endangered species law (starting with the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918). And someone may have ownership rights to the land, but not mineral rights. Therefore, land ownership clearly does not mean ownership and control of everything on the land.
pjmlp 3y ago
Actually in countries like Portugal, you can lose ownership when that land is required for public good. You are entitled to fight in court, and if you lose, you get whatever the goverment feels right to pay for the land.
- swexbe 3y ago
  That's pretty much every country including the US.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  That's pretty normal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain Without it, you couldn't build things like roads.

wrp 3y ago

There are a great many historical artifacts that are privately held but have been available for study. Conversation on disposition of treasures tends to conflate two issues, ownership and accessibility. I seriously doubt that anyone willing to spend six figures on some coins would be reluctant to let scholars examine them (if such ownership was legal).

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Finders need to report their find within 14 days. It's not that ot does not belong to them: if the find is deemed a treasure they are obligated to offer it to museums for purchase at a price set by a valuation committee. If museums are interested then they keep it and can do whatever they want with it.

biorach 3y ago
If museums are not interested then they (the metal detectorists) keep it and can do whatever they want with it.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Ah yes, of course. Too late for me to correct now.
narcraft 3y ago
If you are obligated to offer something for a purchase price set by a valuation committee, you do not in practice own it. The committee, though ostensibly bounded by some rules or guidelines, nonetheless could set a price different from what the market would actually bear. If they're truly offering competitive prices then the rule requiring a coin-finder to sell at the committee-determined price would be unnecessary.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  What is a competitive price for such items? IMHO, either you sell at auction to find out orr you ask experts to value. Since the sale is not on the open market they picked the second option, which is reasonable.
  - sbaiddn 3y ago
    Without a market, there is no fair evaluation of value.

vasco 3y ago

[flagged]

wslh 3y ago

This is common to most countries, not particular of England. If you find an archeological object it is part of the country patrimony. It is particularly interesting when you are working in a construction and the building is completely halted because it is in a new discovered archeological area. The spirit of this kind of laws is not only to protect the patrimony but to keep the objects within the boundaries of the country. Without these laws the objects will fly to the best buyer in the globe.

WeylandYutani 3y ago
The Netherlands lost a lot of paintings before the government stepped in and funded the Rijksmuseum. Then for a 150 years they bought as many of them back as they could. Whenever I'm in a museum abroad I always like to visit the Dutch/Flemish masters section. There are good ones in Spain but those are honourable spoils of war. The American museums are wealthy industrialists buying paintings at an auction.
- wslh 3y ago
  In general, fine art work has a different treatment that archeological artifacts but also has a relationship with the time of ownership and where/how you find/buy it. There are also more complex cases, for example the recovery of stolen art from the Nazis.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > There are good ones in Spain but those are honourable spoils of war. The American museums are wealthy industrialists buying paintings at an auction. Are you saying that taking paintings via violence is ethically better than buying them on the open market?
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    It’s stronger than that. ‘Honourable’ would suggest the stealing was a good thing. The post must be a joke or sarcasm surely?
  - 3y ago

Jabbles 3y ago

For comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#United_States

DrBazza 3y ago

Any treasure finds in the UK are usually passed onto archaeologists and/or historians in the first instance for study, and almost certainly end up in a museum thereafter if they have historical worth. They are allowed to be sold for profit if those criteria aren't met.

3pt14159 3y ago

Tiny nitpick, but you need to find two coins to qualify: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Act_1996 I think that's the right call. A common person can find an old coin and not really think about the historical impact it has. Merely keep it on his or her shelf or bring it to a shop for some extra cash. But once you're in the realm of finding multiple coins, the onus kinda changes. There may be more, greed sets in and wanting to conceal the find is bad. Also, England doesn't "take their treasure" it buys it off of them if the museum wants to buy it and for a fair price.

abecedarius 3y ago
That system sounds reasonable, except that if "greed" is at all common in practice, that's good evidence the price is not fair. I followed the wikipedia link to the committee in charge but it didn't say anything about this question.
- 3pt14159 3y ago
  If it were common, I think the press would have a field day with it, especially the international press. There should be enough pressure on both sides for this not to be a problem, but I'm not an expert in English treasure.

admissionsguy 3y ago

I know some people living in villages in Eastern Poland who regularly dig up historical coins and such on their land. They promptly hide or destroy them due to fear/unwillingness to deal with authorities. I used to be annoyed/bewildered at it, but ever since the time sitting on a bench in the park got criminalised, I get it. There is no common good in a low trust society.

jb1991 3y ago
> sitting on a bench in the park got criminalised What does that mean?
- rolisz 3y ago
  COVID restrictions probably
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Or vagrancy laws.

wingspar 3y ago

Roald Dahl, of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory fame, wrote a non-fiction account about one such unreported find, the Mildenhall Treasure. The find was made during WWII. No jail time but almost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mildenhall_Treasure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mildenhall_Treasure

flir 3y ago

In Ireland you can't even use a metal detector on your own land. Yes, taking your history seriously is a good thing.

stevenwoo 3y ago

There is a hobby dedicated to using metal detectors to find treasure and a somewhat recent BBC television series about this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l51nr https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06l51nr