3 ms·

You assume too much. > One scale is how well power is spread across the institutions of government and society, the legislative, judicial and executive branche

by _8j50 3y ago

You assume too much. > One scale is how well power is spread across the institutions of government and society, the legislative, judicial and executive branches, the institutions of press, academy, industry, religion, society... are they independent, or all bent to serve the executive, and now many and how much? That's nice, but let a country figure that out on their own. You don't get to decide that measurement for the billions of humans who are barely surviving. Look at China, so long as the economy is good the people mostly support the CCP, outside of its handling if covid lockdowns one could even argue the CCP had more popular support than either parties ever had in the US in the last 20+ years! That's what upsets me about you people, i don't care about autocracies and dictators or democracies but you freaking claim to give a shit about what the people think but when they disagree with your way of life you pretend the measurement or polling must be incorrect. Ideologies are cheap, people care about results, they want food, shelter and security before ideology and for many they would not trade their identity and sovreignity for imported ideology. Why you all can't focus your energy here at home where many of your fellow citizens are suffering I would never know. Yea, democracy and sovreignity are not mutually exclusive but they become mutually exclusive if foreign forces manipulate domestic media and fund or sabotage different elemnts in a country. Even saying a country would be better off with democracy is propaganda and an attempt to influence domestic matters of a foreign country. Look at how many people died in the arab spring because if this same propaganda spread by western clueless people or what's happening in Iran, your propaganda worked, your interference coninues to cause chaos, your assumptions and unwillingness to respect a nation's sovreignity causes harm!

toss1 3y ago
First, some fundamentals: 1) Freedom to live a self determined life, under a self-determined government is a most fundamental human desire, and right. 2) Neutrality ALWAYS favors the aggressor, the abuser, the autocrat. It allows them to continue aggressing, abusing, and dictating without interference, and provides only hopelessness to the victims of aggression, abuse, and autocracy. 3) Anyone who wants to live a self-determined life under a self-determining government must be better armed and prepared to fight for that right. Without being better armed and prepared, the abusers or autocrats WILL, and sooner rather than later, take their lunch and their government. You argue to: >>let a country figure that out on their own Nonsense Lacking the power to overthrow a dictatorship is NOT the same thing as choosing that person/party as a leader. Once a group of abusers or autocrats has succeeded in the aggression to take over the government, that does NOT mean that it is permanently decided. Claiming so does nothing but help the abusers. Just look at the Iran regime who came to power 40+ years ago. The regime has murdered hundreds of people and imprisoned and tortured thousand simply for daring to speak out against them by not wearing a scarf. Literally millions risk their lives to protest. It is obvious that the regime is not desired by the people, yet you claim that nothing should be done to help them, not even subtle things to undermine the regime's power. Disgusting. You argue that: >>you pretend the measurement or polling must be incorrect Nonsense Any presumption that polling about the popularity of an autocracy inside that autocracy is simply preposterous. First, the polling sample is already pre-selected. All vocal opponents have been removed form the sample. Anyone even remotely connected to them has learned that speaking out has very negative consequences, either long-term imprisonment and torture or death. On top of that, all media and information is tightly controlled, so people cannot even get information about, much less discuss, alternatives. And you propose that polling under those circumstances is accurate? Oblivious, to be kind. >>Ideologies are cheap Fully agree. Ideologies are nothing but bullshit covering for autocracy. It doesn't matter what kind of -ism you're talking about, communism, Marxism, Naziism, fascism, Trumpism, whatever; it is all noise to cover up the will to autocracy by those using it. As the -isms fall apart and away, we can see the fight for what it is - self-determination vs autocracy. >>You assume too much. Nope, there are only a few choices for people who support autocracy. They (and sadly, you) are arguing to keep people essentially (and often literally) enslaved because they lack the power to force their will for self-determination on their oppressors. The only reason someone would do that is 1) they are a dictator themselves, 2) they are in the ruling party and thus enjoy the benefits of a kleptocracy hoarding the wealth of a nation, or 3) they enjoy a privileged life in a democracy such that they can engage in abstract concepts that ignore the reality of millions and play the role of Vladimir Lenin's Useful Idiots. The only other option is that you are somehow personally aggrieved because of some specific past action by the democratic nations affected you or your relatives, you are certainly avoiding that topic, and are also constructing an entirely false narrative to avoid direct discussion. I will not argue that there are some if not many instances where actions of democratic nations were mistaken or misguided, and caused real damage and death. But contract the maximum total of that damage and death against the literally hundreds of millions killed by dictators (either by direct action or starvation by their policies) in just the last century (Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Un family, etc.+++), and the misery of billions more living under their regimes. Or just compare the economies and relative well-being of North vs South Korea, a controlled experiment. SK is wealthy, comfortable, and self-determining, while millions literally starve today in NK. There is no debate. Stop defending it. It is abhorrent.
- penteract 3y ago
  I'm not convinced that South Korea is the best example - much of its economic growth(until 1987) occurred under what Wikipedia describes as dictatorial then despotic rule and I'd be tempted to attribute some of the difference to having the US as an ally instead of the collapsing Soviet Union.
  - toss1 3y ago
    Sure, maybe not the best example off the top of my head. But not bad either. While levels of democracy were bad (i.e., higher autocracy) in the early years, the trend has certainly been towards democracy, and growth has been solid under both conditions, and steadier in the last few decades. Sure, trading with the US and ER is also a factor, but that is also a benefit of being a democracy, instead of being an autocracy and relying on international criminal activities for currency, as does NK. And while these factors may account for some of the difference it certainly doesn't count for all of it. While they're on two halves of the same patch of land, NK should also have some advantages with their direct land connections to China an Russia. Yet, NK residents are literally kept ignorant and starving, while SK is one of the most prosperous nations in the world. It would be extreme paternalism to argue that even if they had good information and the means to make a self-determining government, that they would not do so. In fact, parts of the experiment have already been done in NK — while any type of private enterprise was absolutely banned, it still sprung up all the time, and in one of their earlier famines, the govt relented and it was allowed because it did help better distribute resources. Just because people who don't like what thy have and are powerless to change it, does not mean that they want it or it is best for them. [0] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/gdp-growth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/gdp-gr...

by _8j50 3y ago

toss1 3y ago

First, some fundamentals: 1) Freedom to live a self determined life, under a self-determined government is a most fundamental human desire, and right. 2) Neutrality ALWAYS favors the aggressor, the abuser, the autocrat. It allows them to continue aggressing, abusing, and dictating without interference, and provides only hopelessness to the victims of aggression, abuse, and autocracy. 3) Anyone who wants to live a self-determined life under a self-determining government must be better armed and prepared to fight for that right. Without being better armed and prepared, the abusers or autocrats WILL, and sooner rather than later, take their lunch and their government. You argue to: >>let a country figure that out on their own Nonsense Lacking the power to overthrow a dictatorship is NOT the same thing as choosing that person/party as a leader. Once a group of abusers or autocrats has succeeded in the aggression to take over the government, that does NOT mean that it is permanently decided. Claiming so does nothing but help the abusers. Just look at the Iran regime who came to power 40+ years ago. The regime has murdered hundreds of people and imprisoned and tortured thousand simply for daring to speak out against them by not wearing a scarf. Literally millions risk their lives to protest. It is obvious that the regime is not desired by the people, yet you claim that nothing should be done to help them, not even subtle things to undermine the regime's power. Disgusting. You argue that: >>you pretend the measurement or polling must be incorrect Nonsense Any presumption that polling about the popularity of an autocracy inside that autocracy is simply preposterous. First, the polling sample is already pre-selected. All vocal opponents have been removed form the sample. Anyone even remotely connected to them has learned that speaking out has very negative consequences, either long-term imprisonment and torture or death. On top of that, all media and information is tightly controlled, so people cannot even get information about, much less discuss, alternatives. And you propose that polling under those circumstances is accurate? Oblivious, to be kind. >>Ideologies are cheap Fully agree. Ideologies are nothing but bullshit covering for autocracy. It doesn't matter what kind of -ism you're talking about, communism, Marxism, Naziism, fascism, Trumpism, whatever; it is all noise to cover up the will to autocracy by those using it. As the -isms fall apart and away, we can see the fight for what it is - self-determination vs autocracy. >>You assume too much. Nope, there are only a few choices for people who support autocracy. They (and sadly, you) are arguing to keep people essentially (and often literally) enslaved because they lack the power to force their will for self-determination on their oppressors. The only reason someone would do that is 1) they are a dictator themselves, 2) they are in the ruling party and thus enjoy the benefits of a kleptocracy hoarding the wealth of a nation, or 3) they enjoy a privileged life in a democracy such that they can engage in abstract concepts that ignore the reality of millions and play the role of Vladimir Lenin's Useful Idiots. The only other option is that you are somehow personally aggrieved because of some specific past action by the democratic nations affected you or your relatives, you are certainly avoiding that topic, and are also constructing an entirely false narrative to avoid direct discussion. I will not argue that there are some if not many instances where actions of democratic nations were mistaken or misguided, and caused real damage and death. But contract the maximum total of that damage and death against the literally hundreds of millions killed by dictators (either by direct action or starvation by their policies) in just the last century (Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Un family, etc.+++), and the misery of billions more living under their regimes. Or just compare the economies and relative well-being of North vs South Korea, a controlled experiment. SK is wealthy, comfortable, and self-determining, while millions literally starve today in NK. There is no debate. Stop defending it. It is abhorrent.

penteract 3y ago
I'm not convinced that South Korea is the best example - much of its economic growth(until 1987) occurred under what Wikipedia describes as dictatorial then despotic rule and I'd be tempted to attribute some of the difference to having the US as an ally instead of the collapsing Soviet Union.
- toss1 3y ago
  Sure, maybe not the best example off the top of my head. But not bad either. While levels of democracy were bad (i.e., higher autocracy) in the early years, the trend has certainly been towards democracy, and growth has been solid under both conditions, and steadier in the last few decades. Sure, trading with the US and ER is also a factor, but that is also a benefit of being a democracy, instead of being an autocracy and relying on international criminal activities for currency, as does NK. And while these factors may account for some of the difference it certainly doesn't count for all of it. While they're on two halves of the same patch of land, NK should also have some advantages with their direct land connections to China an Russia. Yet, NK residents are literally kept ignorant and starving, while SK is one of the most prosperous nations in the world. It would be extreme paternalism to argue that even if they had good information and the means to make a self-determining government, that they would not do so. In fact, parts of the experiment have already been done in NK — while any type of private enterprise was absolutely banned, it still sprung up all the time, and in one of their earlier famines, the govt relented and it was allowed because it did help better distribute resources. Just because people who don't like what thy have and are powerless to change it, does not mean that they want it or it is best for them. [0] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/gdp-growth-rate https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/KOR/south-korea/gdp-gr...