3 ms·

The over-eager use of ventilators was basically a death sentence for hundreds of thousands of people.

was_a_dev 3y ago
Isn't this difficult to conclude? If a patient requiring a ventilator has 100% chance of dying without, or 50% chance of dying from secondary bacterial pneumonia. Then while it is true the use of ventialtors lead to deaths, it doesn't mean it caused more deaths than without
- postalrat 3y ago
  That's only true if you are limited to two options
  - was_a_dev 3y ago
    Once you get to needing to be intubated, you pratically only have the one
    - hammock 3y ago
      Covid patients we thought needed to be intubated, didn’t. The science had to change and eventually we stopped killing Covid patients by putting them on vents. https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...
  - simplotek 3y ago
    > That's only true if you are limited to two options What other options do you think there are? And consider that you're already talking about people which are fainting and suffocating.
    - hammock 3y ago
      >you're already talking about people which are fainting and suffocating. No. Many Covid patients have blood oxygen levels so low they should be dead (into the 70s and even lower). But they’re not gasping for air, their hearts aren’t racing, and their brains show no signs of blinking off from lack of oxygen. They did not need vents- their pulse ox levels were misleading. https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...
      - simplotek 3y ago
        It seems you are confused. You're pointing out observations from the very onset of the COVID pandemic, which were immediately adopted as policy. This is stuff that precedes other policies like placing ICU patients prone/lying face down to improve breathing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8864017/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8864017/ It makes absolutely no sense at all to fabricate conspiracy theories based on the assumption that everyone in the world was systematically subjected to a procedure which was rejected right from the start.
surgeryres 3y ago
Not sure what you mean by over-eager. Patients are only intubated and placed on mechanical ventilation when they will die otherwise. There is a step wise increase in ventilatory support in these cases, starting at a nasal cannula, then increasing to face mask, then a positive pressure (CPAP) mask, and then if they are still hypoxic or hypercarbic - intubation is the next step.
- hammock 3y ago
  In the early days of Covid, hospitals were seeing pulse ox levels so urgently low (70s and lower) that they put many patients on vents much sooner than they normally would. The protocols were quickly changed once we realized vents harmed Covid patients more than they helped… but not before thousands died on them. Here is an article from 2020 discussing the problem https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...
kxyvr 3y ago
This kind of comment makes me genuinely angry. It's exact opposite. Repeating this lie led to painful death. My wife is an ICU physician. I traveled with her around the country during the COVID pandemic to help provide moral support for what was a very difficult job. One of the most common, heart breaking stories were the patients who were wrongly told by their friends or the internet they were going to die if they were intubated. Now, it is your right to refuse intubation just as it is your right to refuse resuscitation. That said, my wife would recommend intubation if it was warranted and these patients would flat refuse because of information like this. Then, she would watch them slowly and painfully decompensate day by day. Weaker and weaker. Then, when they were at death's door, they would universally reverse their refusal of intubation and ask her to do everything. At this point, my wife would hold their cell phone while they video chatted their husbands, and wives, and parents, and children. Tell them how much they loved them. Then, they would crash and my wife would frantically try to intubate them and keep them alive. At this point, they had no reserves. Most of them died. No physician in their right mind recommends intubation without cause. It's a procedure. It carries risk. However, it is vastly easier to do in a controlled setting before someone has no reserves and is crashing. It means that they could give the patients lungs a break, so they can heal. I listened to these stories day after day after day and tried to support my wife as best as I could. Physicians are not perfect. They do make mistakes. They also have vastly more experience dealing with the intricacies of care. That said, comments like this one absolutely killed people. People who didn't need to die. That was and still is wrong.
- heretohelp3546 3y ago
  Sadly if you look back through this person's comment history you'll find as bad or worse. I personally am of the opinion that HN is no place for these kind of comments, but day by day they're out there fighting the good fight around here. It makes me sad to see that no amount of comments like yours appear to prevent this human from continuing their crusade here of comment-thread closed-minded misinformation-laden horse-shit.
- realjhol 3y ago
  What you're describing is clearly extremely strongly felt. Nevertheless, there is a growing body of evidence that the use ventilators is linked to excess mortality: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/170682 https://www.jci.org/articles/view/170682

Isn't this difficult to conclude? If a patient requiring a ventilator has 100% chance of dying without, or 50% chance of dying from secondary bacterial pneumonia. Then while it is true the use of ventialtors lead to deaths, it doesn't mean it caused more deaths than without

postalrat 3y ago
That's only true if you are limited to two options
- was_a_dev 3y ago
  Once you get to needing to be intubated, you pratically only have the one
  - hammock 3y ago
    Covid patients we thought needed to be intubated, didn’t. The science had to change and eventually we stopped killing Covid patients by putting them on vents. https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...
- simplotek 3y ago
  > That's only true if you are limited to two options What other options do you think there are? And consider that you're already talking about people which are fainting and suffocating.
  - hammock 3y ago
    >you're already talking about people which are fainting and suffocating. No. Many Covid patients have blood oxygen levels so low they should be dead (into the 70s and even lower). But they’re not gasping for air, their hearts aren’t racing, and their brains show no signs of blinking off from lack of oxygen. They did not need vents- their pulse ox levels were misleading. https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...
    - simplotek 3y ago
      It seems you are confused. You're pointing out observations from the very onset of the COVID pandemic, which were immediately adopted as policy. This is stuff that precedes other policies like placing ICU patients prone/lying face down to improve breathing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8864017/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8864017/ It makes absolutely no sense at all to fabricate conspiracy theories based on the assumption that everyone in the world was systematically subjected to a procedure which was rejected right from the start.

surgeryres 3y ago

Not sure what you mean by over-eager. Patients are only intubated and placed on mechanical ventilation when they will die otherwise. There is a step wise increase in ventilatory support in these cases, starting at a nasal cannula, then increasing to face mask, then a positive pressure (CPAP) mask, and then if they are still hypoxic or hypercarbic - intubation is the next step.

hammock 3y ago
In the early days of Covid, hospitals were seeing pulse ox levels so urgently low (70s and lower) that they put many patients on vents much sooner than they normally would. The protocols were quickly changed once we realized vents harmed Covid patients more than they helped… but not before thousands died on them. Here is an article from 2020 discussing the problem https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-...

kxyvr 3y ago

This kind of comment makes me genuinely angry. It's exact opposite. Repeating this lie led to painful death. My wife is an ICU physician. I traveled with her around the country during the COVID pandemic to help provide moral support for what was a very difficult job. One of the most common, heart breaking stories were the patients who were wrongly told by their friends or the internet they were going to die if they were intubated. Now, it is your right to refuse intubation just as it is your right to refuse resuscitation. That said, my wife would recommend intubation if it was warranted and these patients would flat refuse because of information like this. Then, she would watch them slowly and painfully decompensate day by day. Weaker and weaker. Then, when they were at death's door, they would universally reverse their refusal of intubation and ask her to do everything. At this point, my wife would hold their cell phone while they video chatted their husbands, and wives, and parents, and children. Tell them how much they loved them. Then, they would crash and my wife would frantically try to intubate them and keep them alive. At this point, they had no reserves. Most of them died. No physician in their right mind recommends intubation without cause. It's a procedure. It carries risk. However, it is vastly easier to do in a controlled setting before someone has no reserves and is crashing. It means that they could give the patients lungs a break, so they can heal. I listened to these stories day after day after day and tried to support my wife as best as I could. Physicians are not perfect. They do make mistakes. They also have vastly more experience dealing with the intricacies of care. That said, comments like this one absolutely killed people. People who didn't need to die. That was and still is wrong.

heretohelp3546 3y ago
Sadly if you look back through this person's comment history you'll find as bad or worse. I personally am of the opinion that HN is no place for these kind of comments, but day by day they're out there fighting the good fight around here. It makes me sad to see that no amount of comments like yours appear to prevent this human from continuing their crusade here of comment-thread closed-minded misinformation-laden horse-shit.
realjhol 3y ago
What you're describing is clearly extremely strongly felt. Nevertheless, there is a growing body of evidence that the use ventilators is linked to excess mortality: https://www.jci.org/articles/view/170682 https://www.jci.org/articles/view/170682