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> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supp

> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.

quchen 3y ago
Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo. If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetual effort, appear sober to the uninitiated.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > appear sober to the uninitiated The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.
  - quchen 3y ago
    My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.
    - RosanaAnaDana 3y ago
      Im guessing you aren't injecting it
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        Are you? Getting access to liquid LSD and the means to IM or IV it are certainly not typical, or anywhere near the prevalence of access to the oral form
        quchen 3y ago
        I mean it's water soluble and you can get syringes and medicinal NaCl solution in a pharmacy just fine, so if you really want to go down that road it's no problem. Just begs the question why anyone would do that.
- sheepscreek 3y ago
  Thanks for explaining this. Perhaps 75ug in one group and 25ug in the other would have been a better test. Blows my mind to think - the design of an experiment can have a huge impact on the outcome. I guess, clinical trials are just as much an art as they are a science.
theaiquestion 3y ago
~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. There was no way anyone mistakes that for being sober. That said the come-up at any dose and any experience level is hilarious because everyone is always like "is it hitting yet?" as it progressively becomes more intense. tl;dr - placebo could fool even some experienced users if they know they're being given a really low dose. The treatment group would absolutely know no matter how much experience you have. https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/LSD https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/LSD EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. Always use two different reagents to test, and always have a plan to control anxiety in case of bad trips.
- eternalban 3y ago
  > ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.
  - wholinator2 3y ago
    As far as i understand, psylocin and LSD have never been shown to be dangerous, in combination with any drug with possible exception to MAOI _maybe_. There are interactions that make it less intense and interactions that make it more intense. The only real danger is that you'll do something bad while in the state, not that the state will actually harm you. So it's perfectly reasonable for someone to take a low dose of LSD while on antidepressants. The worst I've ever heard of occurring is that you just won't feel it at all. It's a targeted agonist of multiple serotonin receptors, i don't believe it actually releases any large flood of serotonin. Something like MDMA though _is_ very dangerous to take with SSRIs due to serotonin syndrome. I've known many people to do psychedelics while on antidepressants and non of them have ever approached the levels of danger or concern that I've seen for people doing MDMA while not on anything else. The traditional psychedelics (LSD, shrooms) are remarkably safe and there's no reason to act like this person is being dumb or disingenuous for doing them in their circumstance. If you have research to the contrary I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to learn
anigbrowl 3y ago
100 micrograms taken orally is the popular norm. What GP means is that you might not know as a reader, but if you were one of the test subjects you would very definitely know you were not in the control group. Likewise if you were in the control group but had taken LSD before you'd know you had drawn the short straw (unless the details of what was being tested were completely withheld).
- cptcobalt 3y ago
  Withholding the details of what was being tested would definitely not be informed consent.

quchen 3y ago

Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo. If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetual effort, appear sober to the uninitiated.

meepmorp 3y ago
> appear sober to the uninitiated The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.
- quchen 3y ago
  My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.
  - RosanaAnaDana 3y ago
    Im guessing you aren't injecting it
    - wholinator2 3y ago
      Are you? Getting access to liquid LSD and the means to IM or IV it are certainly not typical, or anywhere near the prevalence of access to the oral form
      - quchen 3y ago
        I mean it's water soluble and you can get syringes and medicinal NaCl solution in a pharmacy just fine, so if you really want to go down that road it's no problem. Just begs the question why anyone would do that.
sheepscreek 3y ago
Thanks for explaining this. Perhaps 75ug in one group and 25ug in the other would have been a better test. Blows my mind to think - the design of an experiment can have a huge impact on the outcome. I guess, clinical trials are just as much an art as they are a science.

theaiquestion 3y ago

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. There was no way anyone mistakes that for being sober. That said the come-up at any dose and any experience level is hilarious because everyone is always like "is it hitting yet?" as it progressively becomes more intense. tl;dr - placebo could fool even some experienced users if they know they're being given a really low dose. The treatment group would absolutely know no matter how much experience you have. https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/LSD https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/LSD EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. Always use two different reagents to test, and always have a plan to control anxiety in case of bad trips.

eternalban 3y ago
> ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.
- wholinator2 3y ago
  As far as i understand, psylocin and LSD have never been shown to be dangerous, in combination with any drug with possible exception to MAOI _maybe_. There are interactions that make it less intense and interactions that make it more intense. The only real danger is that you'll do something bad while in the state, not that the state will actually harm you. So it's perfectly reasonable for someone to take a low dose of LSD while on antidepressants. The worst I've ever heard of occurring is that you just won't feel it at all. It's a targeted agonist of multiple serotonin receptors, i don't believe it actually releases any large flood of serotonin. Something like MDMA though _is_ very dangerous to take with SSRIs due to serotonin syndrome. I've known many people to do psychedelics while on antidepressants and non of them have ever approached the levels of danger or concern that I've seen for people doing MDMA while not on anything else. The traditional psychedelics (LSD, shrooms) are remarkably safe and there's no reason to act like this person is being dumb or disingenuous for doing them in their circumstance. If you have research to the contrary I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to learn

anigbrowl 3y ago

100 micrograms taken orally is the popular norm. What GP means is that you might not know as a reader, but if you were one of the test subjects you would very definitely know you were not in the control group. Likewise if you were in the control group but had taken LSD before you'd know you had drawn the short straw (unless the details of what was being tested were completely withheld).

cptcobalt 3y ago
Withholding the details of what was being tested would definitely not be informed consent.