4 ms·

> especially the EU, which was mostly built on the basis of confrontation with Russia I think you have the EU and NATO confused. The two overlap a lot but the

by gumby 4y ago

> especially the EU, which was mostly built on the basis of confrontation with Russia I think you have the EU and NATO confused. The two overlap a lot but they are far from coextensional.

sereja 4y ago
The EU is primarily a trade bloc, and it is in natural competition with the Eurasian Economic Union: countries can have tariff-free trade with either one bloc or the other, but not both at the same time. The current scramble over Ukraine is primarily motivated by the EU and the EAEU economically benefiting from the country being in their respective trade zone.
- gumby 4y ago
  The EU is in origin and execution a political entity in which trade is one of its tools. The value of adding, say, Romania to the EU was hardly economic, but important for the anti-war mission. The integration of Turkey would be economically quite significant and valuable, but (sadly) lacks impetus on the political side. It is a NATO member. Likewise, Ukraine’s prewar economy was so small (midway between Hungary and Slovakia) that it would have been economically irrelevant to the EU but, as we have seen, important in the anti war basis. The economic size of the Eurasian Economic Union is quite small and I doubt it plays into the planning of anyone but its members and some of its immediate neighbors. I am from a small country with an economy roughly the size of Russia’s (Australia) and it’s clear that the EU has little interest, positive or negative with trade with Australia. Conversely I have literally never seen mention of the Eurasian version in an Australian newspaper.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    The elephant in the room is that if you invite everybody in your anti-war club, but one country, that remaining country will get really nervous and you might as well get a war (what we are seeing). If the situation is that you can't invite everybody in, then the plan is defective from the start.
    - carlmr 4y ago
      The EU is quite liberal in accepting countries to the anti-war club, but they need to adhere to some standards regarding human rights, trade, and democracy. If you crash your own party with some people that don't fit in, you will cause the guests you wanted to have to leave. Any countries not in the EU don't want to be in the EU. And that's fine. And looking at what the EU does you don't have to be scared if you don't join. It's a defensive union first and foremost. Switzerland isn't scared about the EU invading despite largely uncontrolled borders.
      - egao1980 4y ago
        Latvia and Estonia are allowed to have Nazi parades and repress Russian speaking population i.e. non-citizens, language police and criminal sentences for pro-Russian activists. EU looks some other way all the time. See for example https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-ss-men-hold-anniversary-celebration-in-estonia-552327.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-s... or https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2019-03-16/ty-article/1-000-veterans-march-in-latvia-to-commemorate-nazi-ss-soldiers/0000017f-e48a-d804-ad7f-f5fa5c160000 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2019-03-16/ty-arti... This is not how human rights and democracy should look like.
        hgsgm 4y ago
        The US has Confederacy parades, and also has criminal sentences for being an unregisteres agent of a foreign power.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
        > The US has Confederacy parades, and also has criminal sentences for being an unregisteres agent of a foreign power. No wonder the US did everything to save the nazi collaborator responsible for the massacre of ~100k Poles in Eastern Galicia from a post-war tribunal justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed#Post-war_activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed#Post-war_activiti...

by gumby 4y ago

> especially the EU, which was mostly built on the basis of confrontation with Russia I think you have the EU and NATO confused. The two overlap a lot but they are far from coextensional.

sereja 4y ago

The EU is primarily a trade bloc, and it is in natural competition with the Eurasian Economic Union: countries can have tariff-free trade with either one bloc or the other, but not both at the same time. The current scramble over Ukraine is primarily motivated by the EU and the EAEU economically benefiting from the country being in their respective trade zone.

gumby 4y ago
The EU is in origin and execution a political entity in which trade is one of its tools. The value of adding, say, Romania to the EU was hardly economic, but important for the anti-war mission. The integration of Turkey would be economically quite significant and valuable, but (sadly) lacks impetus on the political side. It is a NATO member. Likewise, Ukraine’s prewar economy was so small (midway between Hungary and Slovakia) that it would have been economically irrelevant to the EU but, as we have seen, important in the anti war basis. The economic size of the Eurasian Economic Union is quite small and I doubt it plays into the planning of anyone but its members and some of its immediate neighbors. I am from a small country with an economy roughly the size of Russia’s (Australia) and it’s clear that the EU has little interest, positive or negative with trade with Australia. Conversely I have literally never seen mention of the Eurasian version in an Australian newspaper.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  The elephant in the room is that if you invite everybody in your anti-war club, but one country, that remaining country will get really nervous and you might as well get a war (what we are seeing). If the situation is that you can't invite everybody in, then the plan is defective from the start.
  - carlmr 4y ago
    The EU is quite liberal in accepting countries to the anti-war club, but they need to adhere to some standards regarding human rights, trade, and democracy. If you crash your own party with some people that don't fit in, you will cause the guests you wanted to have to leave. Any countries not in the EU don't want to be in the EU. And that's fine. And looking at what the EU does you don't have to be scared if you don't join. It's a defensive union first and foremost. Switzerland isn't scared about the EU invading despite largely uncontrolled borders.
    - egao1980 4y ago
      Latvia and Estonia are allowed to have Nazi parades and repress Russian speaking population i.e. non-citizens, language police and criminal sentences for pro-Russian activists. EU looks some other way all the time. See for example https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-ss-men-hold-anniversary-celebration-in-estonia-552327.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-s... or https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2019-03-16/ty-article/1-000-veterans-march-in-latvia-to-commemorate-nazi-ss-soldiers/0000017f-e48a-d804-ad7f-f5fa5c160000 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2019-03-16/ty-arti... This is not how human rights and democracy should look like.
      - hgsgm 4y ago
        The US has Confederacy parades, and also has criminal sentences for being an unregisteres agent of a foreign power.
        ghostwriter 4y ago
        > The US has Confederacy parades, and also has criminal sentences for being an unregisteres agent of a foreign power. No wonder the US did everything to save the nazi collaborator responsible for the massacre of ~100k Poles in Eastern Galicia from a post-war tribunal justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed#Post-war_activities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Lebed#Post-war_activiti...