5 ms·

Of course there are many Russians that want an end to the regime. At least, every Russian I know. Why wouldn't they?

by yazzku 3y ago

thriftwy 3y ago
Russians do indeed want to have some different regime eventually, but usually not at cost of losing the war, having their economy destroyed or getting their country torn apart, etc. Only the young 'children of summer' generation who did not witness 1991 fallout would root for immediate uncontrolled regime change via revolution. Hence it is not a very popular point, and many of its adherents have fleed the country.
- netsharc 3y ago
  Interesting keyword, "regime". Seems like many dictatorships fell in the last decade, in the Arab world, to be replaced by other tyrannical leaders or civil war. Russia seems to have a lot of people in good seats to be a Putin replacement, of course most of them with the same goal of Putin's, i.e. self-enrichment. And to be in such a seat you're usually rich and powerful... And if you're not rich/powerful, you still need their support to be leader, and give them a quid-pro-quo and be nice to them. Just like in many democracies...
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    I don't think you're interpreting the case of Vladimir Putin clearly. It's quite obvious he will not have any chance to actually use his money that he may have stowed away. Autocrats don't get to retire. He also has no official family, his suspected relatives are quite well off but nothing spectacular. And it's hard to explain why a kleptocrat would want to start a war which will make his funds actively sought after all across globe and confiscated wherever found. Whatever cuckoo bananas framework of State government Galkovsky has, it sounds more believeable than naive Navalnist "con men and thieves" with regards to Putin. The other people you've mentioned may fit the kleptocrat profile perfectly, but it's hard to argue how the war would benefit their prospects of keeping that money. That's also the weak link of Navalnist's "Putin builds his palace" narrative - it's obvious that for any palace built, Putin does not get to enjoy it now and he certainly is not going to enjoy it afterwards, so it can't be his palace.
  - worrycue 3y ago
    > Russia seems to have a lot of people in good seats to be a Putin replacement, of course most of them with the same goal of Putin's, i.e. self-enrichment. And to be in such a seat you're usually rich and powerful... I wonder if one of them will take a chance at being a benevolent dictator who sets up a democracy rather than do the usual since the typical dictator seem to have a 50/50 chance of enjoying a retirement vs dying horribly. Setting up a democracy and slowly releasing power would increases the chances of having a nice retirement considerably.
    - netsharc 3y ago
      > Setting up a democracy and slowly releasing power In principle I agree (reporting for Radio Eriwan), cynical me wonders how that would work, the leader would have to cooperate with the West -- because the populace's support seem to depend a lot on how they think their future is looking -- but Western leaders usually visit with business leaders, who say (or tell their puppets ^W elected officials to say) "You want X? We want Y in return.".
iinnPP 3y ago
Sounds like every citizen globally. Except for oligarchs, also globally.
xenospn 3y ago
They’ve tried that once before and ended up here.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  So? The French had to try a few times before Democracy stuck around. Germany and Japan had some... unfortunate... experiences with elections as well, but arguably they're actual democracies now, too.
_8j50 3y ago
Democracy is not a one size fits all solution. Even the US endured a civil war while trying to do democracy, it isn't that simple and democraric nations shouldn't be pushing it down everyone's throats. Every country needs to figure out what works for them. Some even debate id countries with two party options like america are even an actual valid democracy and others debate if China is really communist because of it's embrace of market economy and even the D in DPRK stands for democraric. "Follow our ways or else" is b.s. , if well informed citizens of a country, without coercion or exceccisve influence by outside forces decide to have a republican representstive democracy with market economy and federalist government structure then so be it. Everyone can see how much billionaires in the US decide who even gets to run for office, what kind of influence do you think oligarchs and the russian mob will have over any supposed democracy there? It's silly to presume that everyone wants democracy, communists also believe everyone in the west except the rich want a pro-worker communist regime where everyone equally prospers and they would use the poverty and homelessness in america, the richest democracy, as an example of how bad democracies are. Even if the educated class pick american style democracy, even America's founders were very concerned about the less informed and educated masses would be influenced by a demagogue to vote against their own interests (and lo and behold trump fulfilled their prophecy). There are many considerations, including how much blood to spill and whose child will spill it when you talk about regime changes like that. Let the people who have to endure the carnage of such change figure out what they want and what fits their cultures and beliefs best. Ultimately, this "everyone loves democracy" sentiment in my opinion is rooted in the arrogant belief that "everyone must share my ways and beliefs and would like the world I live in"
- toss1 3y ago
  Spoken like someone who has never lived under nor seriously studied the consequences and conditions of living in an autocracy (or who has, and wa part of the ruling class). Disgusting (&ya, the fact that democracies are imperfect, billionaires and would-be oligarchs often corrupt politicians is NOT the same. Self-determination and democracy are not binary, but on a scale. One scale is how well power is spread across the institutions of government and society, the legislative, judicial and executive branches, the institutions of press, academy, industry, religion, society... are they independent, or all bent to serve the executive, and now many and how much?)
credit_guy 3y ago
> Why wouldn't they? Assuming your question is not rhetorical, some Russians may not want an end of Putin's regime because they perceive that something worse than Putin is possible, and even likely. A lot of Russians experienced the lawlessness of the 90's, and Putin was perceived as the one who brought a semblance of order and stability. If he is eliminated, or simply dies of natural causes (he's rumored to have cancer), then who will follow him? Is there any guarantee that the new regime is going to be better? There were plenty of bad strongmen around the world who were toppled, only to be replaced by even worse guys. And just to be clear, I'm 100% against Putin. I read every single day about the war in Ukraine, and hope every day that Ukraine will win. I'm quite optimistic that the spring counteroffensive will be a great success (knock on wood). That said, I just answered your question. I can see why some Russians will be ok with Putin staying in power.
- cutler 3y ago
  Yes, those freaks on Russian TV's daily propaganda round table are much scarier than Putin.

Of course there are many Russians that want an end to the regime. At least, every Russian I know. Why wouldn't they?

by yazzku 3y ago

Of course there are many Russians that want an end to the regime. At least, every Russian I know. Why wouldn't they?

Russians do indeed want to have some different regime eventually, but usually not at cost of losing the war, having their economy destroyed or getting their country torn apart, etc. Only the young 'children of summer' generation who did not witness 1991 fallout would root for immediate uncontrolled regime change via revolution. Hence it is not a very popular point, and many of its adherents have fleed the country.

netsharc 3y ago
Interesting keyword, "regime". Seems like many dictatorships fell in the last decade, in the Arab world, to be replaced by other tyrannical leaders or civil war. Russia seems to have a lot of people in good seats to be a Putin replacement, of course most of them with the same goal of Putin's, i.e. self-enrichment. And to be in such a seat you're usually rich and powerful... And if you're not rich/powerful, you still need their support to be leader, and give them a quid-pro-quo and be nice to them. Just like in many democracies...
- thriftwy 3y ago
  I don't think you're interpreting the case of Vladimir Putin clearly. It's quite obvious he will not have any chance to actually use his money that he may have stowed away. Autocrats don't get to retire. He also has no official family, his suspected relatives are quite well off but nothing spectacular. And it's hard to explain why a kleptocrat would want to start a war which will make his funds actively sought after all across globe and confiscated wherever found. Whatever cuckoo bananas framework of State government Galkovsky has, it sounds more believeable than naive Navalnist "con men and thieves" with regards to Putin. The other people you've mentioned may fit the kleptocrat profile perfectly, but it's hard to argue how the war would benefit their prospects of keeping that money. That's also the weak link of Navalnist's "Putin builds his palace" narrative - it's obvious that for any palace built, Putin does not get to enjoy it now and he certainly is not going to enjoy it afterwards, so it can't be his palace.
- worrycue 3y ago
  > Russia seems to have a lot of people in good seats to be a Putin replacement, of course most of them with the same goal of Putin's, i.e. self-enrichment. And to be in such a seat you're usually rich and powerful... I wonder if one of them will take a chance at being a benevolent dictator who sets up a democracy rather than do the usual since the typical dictator seem to have a 50/50 chance of enjoying a retirement vs dying horribly. Setting up a democracy and slowly releasing power would increases the chances of having a nice retirement considerably.
  - netsharc 3y ago
    > Setting up a democracy and slowly releasing power In principle I agree (reporting for Radio Eriwan), cynical me wonders how that would work, the leader would have to cooperate with the West -- because the populace's support seem to depend a lot on how they think their future is looking -- but Western leaders usually visit with business leaders, who say (or tell their puppets ^W elected officials to say) "You want X? We want Y in return.".

iinnPP 3y ago

Sounds like every citizen globally. Except for oligarchs, also globally.

xenospn 3y ago

They’ve tried that once before and ended up here.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
So? The French had to try a few times before Democracy stuck around. Germany and Japan had some... unfortunate... experiences with elections as well, but arguably they're actual democracies now, too.

_8j50 3y ago

Democracy is not a one size fits all solution. Even the US endured a civil war while trying to do democracy, it isn't that simple and democraric nations shouldn't be pushing it down everyone's throats. Every country needs to figure out what works for them. Some even debate id countries with two party options like america are even an actual valid democracy and others debate if China is really communist because of it's embrace of market economy and even the D in DPRK stands for democraric. "Follow our ways or else" is b.s. , if well informed citizens of a country, without coercion or exceccisve influence by outside forces decide to have a republican representstive democracy with market economy and federalist government structure then so be it. Everyone can see how much billionaires in the US decide who even gets to run for office, what kind of influence do you think oligarchs and the russian mob will have over any supposed democracy there? It's silly to presume that everyone wants democracy, communists also believe everyone in the west except the rich want a pro-worker communist regime where everyone equally prospers and they would use the poverty and homelessness in america, the richest democracy, as an example of how bad democracies are. Even if the educated class pick american style democracy, even America's founders were very concerned about the less informed and educated masses would be influenced by a demagogue to vote against their own interests (and lo and behold trump fulfilled their prophecy). There are many considerations, including how much blood to spill and whose child will spill it when you talk about regime changes like that. Let the people who have to endure the carnage of such change figure out what they want and what fits their cultures and beliefs best. Ultimately, this "everyone loves democracy" sentiment in my opinion is rooted in the arrogant belief that "everyone must share my ways and beliefs and would like the world I live in"

toss1 3y ago
Spoken like someone who has never lived under nor seriously studied the consequences and conditions of living in an autocracy (or who has, and wa part of the ruling class). Disgusting (&ya, the fact that democracies are imperfect, billionaires and would-be oligarchs often corrupt politicians is NOT the same. Self-determination and democracy are not binary, but on a scale. One scale is how well power is spread across the institutions of government and society, the legislative, judicial and executive branches, the institutions of press, academy, industry, religion, society... are they independent, or all bent to serve the executive, and now many and how much?)

credit_guy 3y ago

> Why wouldn't they? Assuming your question is not rhetorical, some Russians may not want an end of Putin's regime because they perceive that something worse than Putin is possible, and even likely. A lot of Russians experienced the lawlessness of the 90's, and Putin was perceived as the one who brought a semblance of order and stability. If he is eliminated, or simply dies of natural causes (he's rumored to have cancer), then who will follow him? Is there any guarantee that the new regime is going to be better? There were plenty of bad strongmen around the world who were toppled, only to be replaced by even worse guys. And just to be clear, I'm 100% against Putin. I read every single day about the war in Ukraine, and hope every day that Ukraine will win. I'm quite optimistic that the spring counteroffensive will be a great success (knock on wood). That said, I just answered your question. I can see why some Russians will be ok with Putin staying in power.

cutler 3y ago
Yes, those freaks on Russian TV's daily propaganda round table are much scarier than Putin.