8 ms·

Prior to replacing my furnace I had a mercury thermostat that was easily over 50 years old. The new one is digital but isn't "smart". I don't expect 50 years, b

by titzer 3y ago

Prior to replacing my furnace I had a mercury thermostat that was easily over 50 years old. The new one is digital but isn't "smart". I don't expect 50 years, but 20-30 seems reasonable. Somehow software people have forgotten that physical things last a long time, and people want them to keep working and stay the same as long as possible. My thermostat doesn't need "upgrades", and anyone who thinks they are going to "upgrade" my home remotely via software can get fucked.

13of40 3y ago
Same here, but I want to say some bad things about old thermostats. My first house had propane heating, in a big tank that they would periodically come by and fill, so I had a visceral connection to how much fuel I was using. The previous owner had left the original 1960s mercury thermostats running the place, which meant that barring any initiative on my end the temperature was the same no matter if I was sleeping, at work, or whatever else it is people do. When I finally got around to replacing it with a digital programmable one, it cut my propane bill in half. Do you need to hook it to your smart phone? No, that's dumb. Do you need to choose between bleeding money vs. adjusting everything manually as part of your daily routine, like your grandfather winding the hallway clock? No, also dumb. Local digital is the way to go.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Even that isn't a binary decision (haha). I have a 60 year old dumb analog thermostat and it solves that problem by having a big knob on it with time to set Heating and Cooling. No winding required.
- Espressosaurus 3y ago
  That's what the parent is saying. The new digital thermostats have some nice features without the stupidity that is IoT connectivity that allows the parent corporation to screw you over when they get bored. I personally would not consider anything IoT because anything connected to the internet is a) a vector for intrusion into my network and b) has a lifetime measured in single digit years. Anything going into a home should realistically have a lifetime of at minimum ten years. For capital improvements like a furnace or thermometer connected to it (or a washing machine, or a stove), it should be measured in decades. Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs. Google discards things after a handful of years. Anything cellphone related has a lifetime of 5 years max, and for most it's more like 2 to 3. Keep that shit away from my home and my car.
  - 13of40 3y ago
    > Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs. I'm staring at a pair of wifi enabled lightbulbs above the island in my kitchen that are stuck on the same hue I set them to three years ago when the app actually worked...
- throwaway049 3y ago
  Are you not free to adjust the old thermostat when you leave for work or go to bed?
  - wlonkly 3y ago
    GP specifically said that they found that "also dumb".
- pmcjones 3y ago
  Setback thermostats were invented a century ago — not digital.
  - 13of40 3y ago
    You're correct. I poked around to see what they were like and found this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/134131981597 https://www.ebay.com/itm/134131981597 Adjusted for inflation this would cost almost $500. Probably explains why the ones in my bungalow starter home were just bimetallic coils with mercury switches.
ksec 3y ago
>Somehow software people have forgotten Thank You. And that is precisely why I increasingly hate anything that comes with software.
- the_snooze 3y ago
  Internet-connected software is unavoidably fragile. Remote APIs change and malicious threats evolve. If a company doesn't want to provide long-term maintenance to head off those problems, then they shouldn't be baking in internet-connected software in simple consumer products.
- nunuvit 3y ago
  Really it's business people, and they haven't forgotten so much as they've recognized that software is more profitable.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
I wonder if we could wield regulation to discourage products that phone home without also providing the ability to: - install a cert so we can MITM the traffic and see what they're phoning home about - turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality - configure a different address for cloud I/O, such that I can run the "cloud" part on my own infra if I want those features
- nobodyandproud 3y ago
  Right to repair?
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    It's in that direction, but I think existing right to repair legislation stops short of the right to exclude dependency on the manufacturer's infrastructure entirely.
- clnq 3y ago
  Or it could be done like GDPR — requiring consent and explaining what addresses the device will communicate to, what data will be sent, when, and for what purpose. GDPR requires that every purpose of personal data use is consented to and explained the same way — what data is collected, where it is processed, for how long it is retained, and for what purpose. New tech privacy laws could* definitely use something like this as a starting point. * Assuming no malicious lobbying.
- behnamoh 3y ago
  > - turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality Start with Windows, iOS (Siri), and pretty much any updateable software.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    There's updatable software that only updates when you tell it, and only to the version you tell it to, but it's certainly not the norm. Let's change that. Anything less is a RCE vulnerability.
thayne 3y ago
> Somehow software people have forgotten that physical things last a long time, and people want them to keep working and stay the same as long as possible Maybe a little. But I think a big part of it is businesses realizing they can make a lot more money, at least in the short term, if people have to replace their products more often.
- eastbound 3y ago
  After maintaining online services, I’m quite sure it’s vulnerabilities. It’s extremely costly after 3-5 years to maintain old software. Ex: You have a thermostat or an alarm system that runs Debian, Debian gets a vulnerability, you try to upgrade it, but you need to change Debian versions, and your old stack isn’t supported on the newer version. Nowadays you need to keep patching all your old appliances, keep the old domain names and exact URLs, and need to actively look for vulnerabilities. All of that can only be provided by a subscription, not the initial purchase cost:
  - 9991 3y ago
    Perhaps it's too radical, but if this is the main concern, you could still build appliances with Linux that just aren't networked. Take a page out of Battlestar Galactica's playbook.
    - thayne 3y ago
      Or at least, only connect to the local network.
      - 9991 3y ago
        That’s an option for a consumer who knows what a VLAN is, but mass-market appliances need to have some barrier to network access.
  - oceanplexian 3y ago
    My smart home stuff is all Z-Wave and my oldest devices are going on 10 years now. A light switch doesn’t need to be maintained or updated. I guess a hacker could drive up to my house with a laptop and a SDR, reverse engineer the protocol and then, I guess, turn my lights on and off? That’s a security tradeoff I’m willing to accept.
chaostheory 3y ago
The main reason these new thermostats need upgrades is because they can be controlled remotely via the the internet. It’s a constant security issue.
cabalamat 3y ago
> The new one is digital but isn't "smart". I do not, nor will I ever use, any "smart" device. "Smart" devices are - unnecessarily complicated - privacy destroying - overpriced - vendor lock-in - often infected with online ads you can't get rid of - likely to stop working if the vendor goes bust, their business model changes, or they just feel like it IMO, it is rarely or never a smart decision to get a "smart" device.
- the_snooze 3y ago
  The people who design those things have the exact mindset of an abusive partner: - I want to know everything about you and who you talk to - I will control and change things without your say-so - You can't leave me easily
  - jamiek88 3y ago
    - but I can leave you whenever I want - no you can’t know what you need to know to self host when I leave. How dare you think of other vendors that’s basically cheating on me
- SparkyMcUnicorn 3y ago
  I fully respect when anyone decides they don't want smart devices, but all of your bullet points are quite easy to accomplish with off the shelf devices these days ("unnecessarily complicated" will always be debatable though). All of my lights, outlets, and dozens of other niche things, never connect to the internet, and everything is fully functional when there's no internet connection. Home Assistant with Zigbee devices is fantastic for avoiding vendor lock-in[0]. EspHome and Tasmota fill in nicely for if/when you want wifi devices. [0] https://zigbee.blakadder.com/all.html https://zigbee.blakadder.com/all.html
  - grepfru_it 3y ago
    Personally think zwave to be the most entrenched (commercial real estate relies heavily on zwave). The “cool” smart products typically exist as Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and zigbee devices (in that order). The requirements for those turn me off but I have been very successful with zwave. It powers everything from locks and lights to doors gates and my sprinkler system. HVAC is controlled by zwave and I even have a keychain scene controller that acts as a key fob to my house. When it comes close, it associates and that event can trigger a rule set. I’m using openHAB instead of HA for the tinkerability, but the new versions are pretty power user friendly
brookst 3y ago
> physical things last a long time There's a lot of survivor bias here. I have had plenty of dumb physical things fail in what seems like unreasonably short times. But I do have done physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old. I do not interpret that to mean that everything from that era / factory / manufacturer lasts 100 years, just that all of the surviving items did.
- clnq 3y ago
  Reliability of anything can be described by the same generic bathtub curve — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve. We used to have a lot of technology that would wear out very slowly, but early failure was more common. Now most technology doesn't last more than a year or two, but generally doesn't fail upfront.
- notjoemama 3y ago
  > But I do have done physical dumb devices Can you rephrase this? I don't understand the point you're making. Two verbs against the same subject but with different temporal context, perhaps you stuggle with communicating sometimes?
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Obviously a typo -- done -> some This is a weirdly confrontational comment.
- titzer 3y ago
  > physical dumb devices Physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old are usually made out of pretty durable, but individually replaceable parts. Thus they get fixed if they do break. The mechanisms are usually pretty easy to figure out, so you can spot if a spring is broken, a bolt is loose, a thing stopped turning, etc.
housemusicfan 3y ago
Here's a scenario. I own one of these new-fangled wifi thermostats. The developers frequently update the firmware remotely. There is no way to disable this 'feature' that I know of. Let's say the update fails catastrophically (loses power during flashing etc) and the device is bricked. I'm not home, it's dead of winter, pipes freeze, burst, and flood my home. Far fetched? Maybe, maybe not. Who is liable for this? I'm sure the "click to agree" EULA when the thermostat boots up absolves them of responsibility.
bgro 3y ago
Software for maintenance devices shouldn't be written so it forces people to use a cloud service unless they can guarantee that will always work. There's about 1000 points of failure in that. Actually, I'm pretty sure DVDs and music CDs and games only exist because that was their only option. If you look at what the law is and what they're trying to do, you don't own the rights to the game you buy. If they could forcefully take it back from you and disable the in game radio because their license expired, they would. And they do, when they can. Same with movies you "buy" instead of renting for money. They can and do just change their licensing and remove it from your account. Game launchers also do this. If you get banned in 1 game, they can just delete your entire account and all linked services because you're not really buying the game. You're barely even buying a license to use it. You basically have zero rights other than where technology has limited them. Anyway, that aside, software shouldn't be your only concern. It has all of the visibility right now, but tech hardware should also be up there. Physical life of tech is currently terrible. An unopened, factory sealed electronic left in a store will still die after like 5 to 10 years. Nobody wants to or can feasibly repair it so it's just e-waste. Analog equipment exists for some things with higher tech solutions adding functionality and reducing power in some cases, but I'm curious to see more data about how these truly compare. I came across this while looking at how to backup data for a long time. I was also curious about the case of analog devices in space. It's been hard to find a lot of info about it.
stjohnswarts 3y ago
The one I just replaced was going on the fritz after 25 years (15 years old when I moved into this house, I checked the mfg date). I got another pretty dumb (but programmable) thermostat that isn't wifi anything. So I think you made a good call on 20-30 years.

by titzer 3y ago

13of40 3y ago

Same here, but I want to say some bad things about old thermostats. My first house had propane heating, in a big tank that they would periodically come by and fill, so I had a visceral connection to how much fuel I was using. The previous owner had left the original 1960s mercury thermostats running the place, which meant that barring any initiative on my end the temperature was the same no matter if I was sleeping, at work, or whatever else it is people do. When I finally got around to replacing it with a digital programmable one, it cut my propane bill in half. Do you need to hook it to your smart phone? No, that's dumb. Do you need to choose between bleeding money vs. adjusting everything manually as part of your daily routine, like your grandfather winding the hallway clock? No, also dumb. Local digital is the way to go.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
Even that isn't a binary decision (haha). I have a 60 year old dumb analog thermostat and it solves that problem by having a big knob on it with time to set Heating and Cooling. No winding required.
Espressosaurus 3y ago
That's what the parent is saying. The new digital thermostats have some nice features without the stupidity that is IoT connectivity that allows the parent corporation to screw you over when they get bored. I personally would not consider anything IoT because anything connected to the internet is a) a vector for intrusion into my network and b) has a lifetime measured in single digit years. Anything going into a home should realistically have a lifetime of at minimum ten years. For capital improvements like a furnace or thermometer connected to it (or a washing machine, or a stove), it should be measured in decades. Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs. Google discards things after a handful of years. Anything cellphone related has a lifetime of 5 years max, and for most it's more like 2 to 3. Keep that shit away from my home and my car.
- 13of40 3y ago
  > Even lightbulbs aren't that disposable anymore thanks to LEDs. I'm staring at a pair of wifi enabled lightbulbs above the island in my kitchen that are stuck on the same hue I set them to three years ago when the app actually worked...
throwaway049 3y ago
Are you not free to adjust the old thermostat when you leave for work or go to bed?
- wlonkly 3y ago
  GP specifically said that they found that "also dumb".
pmcjones 3y ago
Setback thermostats were invented a century ago — not digital.
- 13of40 3y ago
  You're correct. I poked around to see what they were like and found this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/134131981597 https://www.ebay.com/itm/134131981597 Adjusted for inflation this would cost almost $500. Probably explains why the ones in my bungalow starter home were just bimetallic coils with mercury switches.

ksec 3y ago

>Somehow software people have forgotten Thank You. And that is precisely why I increasingly hate anything that comes with software.

the_snooze 3y ago
Internet-connected software is unavoidably fragile. Remote APIs change and malicious threats evolve. If a company doesn't want to provide long-term maintenance to head off those problems, then they shouldn't be baking in internet-connected software in simple consumer products.
nunuvit 3y ago
Really it's business people, and they haven't forgotten so much as they've recognized that software is more profitable.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

I wonder if we could wield regulation to discourage products that phone home without also providing the ability to: - install a cert so we can MITM the traffic and see what they're phoning home about - turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality - configure a different address for cloud I/O, such that I can run the "cloud" part on my own infra if I want those features

nobodyandproud 3y ago
Right to repair?
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  It's in that direction, but I think existing right to repair legislation stops short of the right to exclude dependency on the manufacturer's infrastructure entirely.
clnq 3y ago
Or it could be done like GDPR — requiring consent and explaining what addresses the device will communicate to, what data will be sent, when, and for what purpose. GDPR requires that every purpose of personal data use is consented to and explained the same way — what data is collected, where it is processed, for how long it is retained, and for what purpose. New tech privacy laws could* definitely use something like this as a starting point. * Assuming no malicious lobbying.
behnamoh 3y ago
> - turn off the phoning home without breaking local functionality Start with Windows, iOS (Siri), and pretty much any updateable software.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  There's updatable software that only updates when you tell it, and only to the version you tell it to, but it's certainly not the norm. Let's change that. Anything less is a RCE vulnerability.

thayne 3y ago

> Somehow software people have forgotten that physical things last a long time, and people want them to keep working and stay the same as long as possible Maybe a little. But I think a big part of it is businesses realizing they can make a lot more money, at least in the short term, if people have to replace their products more often.

eastbound 3y ago
After maintaining online services, I’m quite sure it’s vulnerabilities. It’s extremely costly after 3-5 years to maintain old software. Ex: You have a thermostat or an alarm system that runs Debian, Debian gets a vulnerability, you try to upgrade it, but you need to change Debian versions, and your old stack isn’t supported on the newer version. Nowadays you need to keep patching all your old appliances, keep the old domain names and exact URLs, and need to actively look for vulnerabilities. All of that can only be provided by a subscription, not the initial purchase cost:
- 9991 3y ago
  Perhaps it's too radical, but if this is the main concern, you could still build appliances with Linux that just aren't networked. Take a page out of Battlestar Galactica's playbook.
  - thayne 3y ago
    Or at least, only connect to the local network.
    - 9991 3y ago
      That’s an option for a consumer who knows what a VLAN is, but mass-market appliances need to have some barrier to network access.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  My smart home stuff is all Z-Wave and my oldest devices are going on 10 years now. A light switch doesn’t need to be maintained or updated. I guess a hacker could drive up to my house with a laptop and a SDR, reverse engineer the protocol and then, I guess, turn my lights on and off? That’s a security tradeoff I’m willing to accept.

chaostheory 3y ago

The main reason these new thermostats need upgrades is because they can be controlled remotely via the the internet. It’s a constant security issue.

cabalamat 3y ago

> The new one is digital but isn't "smart". I do not, nor will I ever use, any "smart" device. "Smart" devices are - unnecessarily complicated - privacy destroying - overpriced - vendor lock-in - often infected with online ads you can't get rid of - likely to stop working if the vendor goes bust, their business model changes, or they just feel like it IMO, it is rarely or never a smart decision to get a "smart" device.

the_snooze 3y ago
The people who design those things have the exact mindset of an abusive partner: - I want to know everything about you and who you talk to - I will control and change things without your say-so - You can't leave me easily
- jamiek88 3y ago
  - but I can leave you whenever I want - no you can’t know what you need to know to self host when I leave. How dare you think of other vendors that’s basically cheating on me
SparkyMcUnicorn 3y ago
I fully respect when anyone decides they don't want smart devices, but all of your bullet points are quite easy to accomplish with off the shelf devices these days ("unnecessarily complicated" will always be debatable though). All of my lights, outlets, and dozens of other niche things, never connect to the internet, and everything is fully functional when there's no internet connection. Home Assistant with Zigbee devices is fantastic for avoiding vendor lock-in[0]. EspHome and Tasmota fill in nicely for if/when you want wifi devices. [0] https://zigbee.blakadder.com/all.html https://zigbee.blakadder.com/all.html
- grepfru_it 3y ago
  Personally think zwave to be the most entrenched (commercial real estate relies heavily on zwave). The “cool” smart products typically exist as Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and zigbee devices (in that order). The requirements for those turn me off but I have been very successful with zwave. It powers everything from locks and lights to doors gates and my sprinkler system. HVAC is controlled by zwave and I even have a keychain scene controller that acts as a key fob to my house. When it comes close, it associates and that event can trigger a rule set. I’m using openHAB instead of HA for the tinkerability, but the new versions are pretty power user friendly

brookst 3y ago

> physical things last a long time There's a lot of survivor bias here. I have had plenty of dumb physical things fail in what seems like unreasonably short times. But I do have done physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old. I do not interpret that to mean that everything from that era / factory / manufacturer lasts 100 years, just that all of the surviving items did.

clnq 3y ago
Reliability of anything can be described by the same generic bathtub curve — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve. We used to have a lot of technology that would wear out very slowly, but early failure was more common. Now most technology doesn't last more than a year or two, but generally doesn't fail upfront.
notjoemama 3y ago
> But I do have done physical dumb devices Can you rephrase this? I don't understand the point you're making. Two verbs against the same subject but with different temporal context, perhaps you stuggle with communicating sometimes?
- uoaei 3y ago
  Obviously a typo -- done -> some This is a weirdly confrontational comment.
titzer 3y ago
> physical dumb devices Physical dumb devices that are 100+ years old are usually made out of pretty durable, but individually replaceable parts. Thus they get fixed if they do break. The mechanisms are usually pretty easy to figure out, so you can spot if a spring is broken, a bolt is loose, a thing stopped turning, etc.

housemusicfan 3y ago

Here's a scenario. I own one of these new-fangled wifi thermostats. The developers frequently update the firmware remotely. There is no way to disable this 'feature' that I know of. Let's say the update fails catastrophically (loses power during flashing etc) and the device is bricked. I'm not home, it's dead of winter, pipes freeze, burst, and flood my home. Far fetched? Maybe, maybe not. Who is liable for this? I'm sure the "click to agree" EULA when the thermostat boots up absolves them of responsibility.

bgro 3y ago

Software for maintenance devices shouldn't be written so it forces people to use a cloud service unless they can guarantee that will always work. There's about 1000 points of failure in that. Actually, I'm pretty sure DVDs and music CDs and games only exist because that was their only option. If you look at what the law is and what they're trying to do, you don't own the rights to the game you buy. If they could forcefully take it back from you and disable the in game radio because their license expired, they would. And they do, when they can. Same with movies you "buy" instead of renting for money. They can and do just change their licensing and remove it from your account. Game launchers also do this. If you get banned in 1 game, they can just delete your entire account and all linked services because you're not really buying the game. You're barely even buying a license to use it. You basically have zero rights other than where technology has limited them. Anyway, that aside, software shouldn't be your only concern. It has all of the visibility right now, but tech hardware should also be up there. Physical life of tech is currently terrible. An unopened, factory sealed electronic left in a store will still die after like 5 to 10 years. Nobody wants to or can feasibly repair it so it's just e-waste. Analog equipment exists for some things with higher tech solutions adding functionality and reducing power in some cases, but I'm curious to see more data about how these truly compare. I came across this while looking at how to backup data for a long time. I was also curious about the case of analog devices in space. It's been hard to find a lot of info about it.

stjohnswarts 3y ago

The one I just replaced was going on the fritz after 25 years (15 years old when I moved into this house, I checked the mfg date). I got another pretty dumb (but programmable) thermostat that isn't wifi anything. So I think you made a good call on 20-30 years.