4 ms·

Unfortunately, I have to take this with a grain of salt, because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite. Could there be opposite-c

by mwint 3y ago

Unfortunately, I have to take this with a grain of salt, because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite. Could there be opposite-conclusion studies that were quashed? If a topic allows only affirmative results in one direction, those same results become statistically impossible to evaluate.

rmbyrro 3y ago
Replication also becomes pointless.
1659447091 3y ago
> because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite Not sure that is true (could be but..) I vaguely remember reading about runners - the details are very fuzzy after that, but I think if you look in this direction you will find what you are looking for. I think it was sprinters, about how both would be equally as fast at the start due to -physics of some sort- but the difference in oxygen usage makes the female fall off faster. Or maybe it was endurance runner, kinda wish I payed attention more, but it was definitely about runners & oxygen usage.
- CobaltFire 3y ago
  Female ultra runners are the only class runner that regularly beat men in absolute terms. I seem to fuzzily recall a study that pinned it to VO2 efficiency and metabolic efficiency.
  - Fezzik 3y ago
    I’m not sure where this notion came from, but it is not true. You can page through all the Ultras and see that the top 3 finishers are, more often than not, men. Women are more competitive vs men compared to other sporting events, and occasionally women crack the top 3, but it’s not that common. https://ultrarunning.com/calendar/race-results https://ultrarunning.com/calendar/race-results
    - CobaltFire 3y ago
      Thanks for the correction. I guess I inflated the margin of difference versus the other events.
Timon3 3y ago
Do you have scientific evidence for bias, or is this just normal culture-war rhetoric?
- fhsm 3y ago
  I don’t know of anyone who contests the existence of publication bias / desk drawer bias - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias The solution - to the extent one exists - is pre registration. I see no evidence that this study was pre registered and thus the usual assumption that it has no meaningful protection from publication bias applies. Here’s one of the very well known reports of potential impact in a well studied area (fda approval): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa065779 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa065779
- arp242 3y ago
  I don't think you need to be a "culture warrior" to realize that the headline "Study finds male astronauts more efficient, suggesting future space missions with all-male crews" would be considerably more controversial, and any author with half a brain would think carefully before publishing it. Glancing at the paper the basics sound about right to me, but since the exact opposite conclusion would be far less tolerable and less likely to be authored and published, one can't help wonder what factors weren't considered for example. If this happens to align with "culture-war rhetoric" from people I have no control over or relationship with so be it.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    I've learned that I have many biases and ideas that aren't grounded in reality, even though I really thought they were, but data couldn't support them. Since then I've tried to confront more and more of my knowledge in the same way. What you wrote might feel correct to you, but have you seen scientific research towards it? If you go by what you feel is right, how do you know you're not being manipulated? Seems like a perfect topic to divide people.
    - arp242 3y ago
smrtinsert 3y ago
> because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite please cite sources
- Bran_son 3y ago
  The authors also submitted different test studies to different peer-review boards. The methodology was identical, and the variable was that the purported findings either went for, or against, the liberal worldview (for example, one found evidence of discrimination against minority groups, and another found evidence of "reverse discrimination" against straight white males). Despite equal methodological strengths, the studies that went against the liberal worldview were criticized and rejected, and those that went with it were not. - https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bias-killing-social-science https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bi... That said, I highly doubt this finding in particular (women needing fewer calories/oxygen) is wrong. It's a well established metabolical fact that women need fewer calories, and it would be bizarre if that didn't translate into less oxygen used.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> Unfortunately, I have to take this with a grain of salt, because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite. This is pretty declarative and indicates a certainty on your part. Unfortunately, it is presented without the evidence that led to your certainty. > Could there be opposite-conclusion studies that were quashed? This sounds like a bias generated, leading question. However, nuance in text can be tricky. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what did you see with this study that leads you to ask this?
faeriechangling 3y ago
It’s well unestablished that women at least eat less calories than men, and they’re smaller than men. If a study found men used LESS resources than women it would of course be surprising and receive closer scrutiny. We see over and over in nature that large things tend to use more resources than small things, of course people would be sceptical. A study having an unpopular conclusion doesn’t necessarily mean that study is especially credulous due to the good peer review it must have had, or that a study with a popular conclusion should be hand waved.

by mwint 3y ago

rmbyrro 3y ago

Replication also becomes pointless.

1659447091 3y ago

> because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite Not sure that is true (could be but..) I vaguely remember reading about runners - the details are very fuzzy after that, but I think if you look in this direction you will find what you are looking for. I think it was sprinters, about how both would be equally as fast at the start due to -physics of some sort- but the difference in oxygen usage makes the female fall off faster. Or maybe it was endurance runner, kinda wish I payed attention more, but it was definitely about runners & oxygen usage.

CobaltFire 3y ago
Female ultra runners are the only class runner that regularly beat men in absolute terms. I seem to fuzzily recall a study that pinned it to VO2 efficiency and metabolic efficiency.
- Fezzik 3y ago
  I’m not sure where this notion came from, but it is not true. You can page through all the Ultras and see that the top 3 finishers are, more often than not, men. Women are more competitive vs men compared to other sporting events, and occasionally women crack the top 3, but it’s not that common. https://ultrarunning.com/calendar/race-results https://ultrarunning.com/calendar/race-results
  - CobaltFire 3y ago
    Thanks for the correction. I guess I inflated the margin of difference versus the other events.

Timon3 3y ago

Do you have scientific evidence for bias, or is this just normal culture-war rhetoric?

fhsm 3y ago
I don’t know of anyone who contests the existence of publication bias / desk drawer bias - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publication_bias The solution - to the extent one exists - is pre registration. I see no evidence that this study was pre registered and thus the usual assumption that it has no meaningful protection from publication bias applies. Here’s one of the very well known reports of potential impact in a well studied area (fda approval): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa065779 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa065779
arp242 3y ago
I don't think you need to be a "culture warrior" to realize that the headline "Study finds male astronauts more efficient, suggesting future space missions with all-male crews" would be considerably more controversial, and any author with half a brain would think carefully before publishing it. Glancing at the paper the basics sound about right to me, but since the exact opposite conclusion would be far less tolerable and less likely to be authored and published, one can't help wonder what factors weren't considered for example. If this happens to align with "culture-war rhetoric" from people I have no control over or relationship with so be it.
- Timon3 3y ago
  I've learned that I have many biases and ideas that aren't grounded in reality, even though I really thought they were, but data couldn't support them. Since then I've tried to confront more and more of my knowledge in the same way. What you wrote might feel correct to you, but have you seen scientific research towards it? If you go by what you feel is right, how do you know you're not being manipulated? Seems like a perfect topic to divide people.
  - arp242 3y ago

smrtinsert 3y ago

> because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite please cite sources

Bran_son 3y ago
The authors also submitted different test studies to different peer-review boards. The methodology was identical, and the variable was that the purported findings either went for, or against, the liberal worldview (for example, one found evidence of discrimination against minority groups, and another found evidence of "reverse discrimination" against straight white males). Despite equal methodological strengths, the studies that went against the liberal worldview were criticized and rejected, and those that went with it were not. - https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bias-killing-social-science https://theweek.com/articles/441474/how-academias-liberal-bi... That said, I highly doubt this finding in particular (women needing fewer calories/oxygen) is wrong. It's a well established metabolical fact that women need fewer calories, and it would be bizarre if that didn't translate into less oxygen used.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> Unfortunately, I have to take this with a grain of salt, because this study wouldn’t have been published if it had found the opposite. This is pretty declarative and indicates a certainty on your part. Unfortunately, it is presented without the evidence that led to your certainty. > Could there be opposite-conclusion studies that were quashed? This sounds like a bias generated, leading question. However, nuance in text can be tricky. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, what did you see with this study that leads you to ask this?

faeriechangling 3y ago

It’s well unestablished that women at least eat less calories than men, and they’re smaller than men. If a study found men used LESS resources than women it would of course be surprising and receive closer scrutiny. We see over and over in nature that large things tend to use more resources than small things, of course people would be sceptical. A study having an unpopular conclusion doesn’t necessarily mean that study is especially credulous due to the good peer review it must have had, or that a study with a popular conclusion should be hand waved.