8 ms·

It's humorous to me that they bothered injecting saline into the control group here. I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 m

by elif 3y ago

It's humorous to me that they bothered injecting saline into the control group here. I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD, and the act of wondering whether you are or not is enough to induce panic. Pretty sure both groups would produce higher quality data in an unblinded study.

droopyEyelids 3y ago
This isnt necessarily true. There is some study out there where subjects were either given saline, or a moderate dose of LSD, and it was only like 60% of subjects were able to tell which was which.
- akvadrako 3y ago
  What is a moderate dose and which 60% ? If someone had never tripped on LSD and was given a placebo, they might think it's LSD because how would they know. But if you know what an LSD trip is, I don't think it's possible to mistake a placebo for it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
tambourine_man 3y ago
Placebo is a powerful drug
bentt 3y ago
Were the subjects told “this is LSD” or were they told “this may be LSD and it may be a placebo”?
- perrylaj 3y ago
  I'm not sure how global the practice is, but at least in the US, you're briefed on the study as part of patient consent. They clearly tell you that nature of the study, including details about blinding, placebos that study participants may get instead of the active chemical, etc.
  - akiselev 3y ago
    Informed consent was codified into international law [1] in response to Nazi and Japanese human experiments. There's a few notable exceptions like China (signed but not ratified internally) and in some cultures it may not be emphasized enough to doctors in training but it's pretty universally understood in medical ethics that lying to patients is a line we should not cross. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights#Rights_to_physical_integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civi...
    - aidenn0 3y ago
      That only requires consent, not informed consent. AFAIK, if someone consents to being experimented on, that law does not require you to fully inform them of the experiment, and certainly not to the degree that a typical IRB in the US requires.
jes5199 3y ago
75 is a fairly mild dose, and people can placebo themselves into some pretty extreme states
- srge 3y ago
  I disagree about 75 being a fairly mild dose. For a 200lbs male maybe. For a 100lbs female definitely not.
  - danielbln 3y ago
    LSD doesn't scale with bodyweight, you take the same amount no matter if you're 100 or 300lbs. Apart from that, 70mcg is a mild dose on context of a regular recreational dose of 150-250mcg, but I agree that 70mcg by itself will absolutely significantly impair an inexperienced user and there is a zero percent chance you would conflate 70mcg with placebo.
    - huuman12 3y ago
      in what world is 250ug of lsd considered a “regular recreational” dose? The standard 100-125 that you get on most paper tabs is plenty to have a strong trip for the vast majority of people and 200-250ug is going to be way too strong for everyone except for the most experienced people
      - b800h 3y ago
        I remember that story about Jim Morrison going missing (before a gig or recording or something?) - he was eventually found under a bed, and all he could say was "ten thousand mics!"
      - quchen 3y ago
        I think most people get over-sold blotters. Every now and then there's a study checking how much LSD is actually on sold-as-200ug blotters, and it's typically 60-80. This also leads to heavy overdoses when getting your hands on actual 200ug blotters...
yakubin 3y ago
> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.
- quchen 3y ago
  Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo. If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetual effort, appear sober to the uninitiated.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > appear sober to the uninitiated The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.
    - quchen 3y ago
      My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.
      - RosanaAnaDana 3y ago
        Im guessing you aren't injecting it
        wholinator2 3y ago
        Are you? Getting access to liquid LSD and the means to IM or IV it are certainly not typical, or anywhere near the prevalence of access to the oral form

by elif 3y ago

droopyEyelids 3y ago

This isnt necessarily true. There is some study out there where subjects were either given saline, or a moderate dose of LSD, and it was only like 60% of subjects were able to tell which was which.

akvadrako 3y ago
What is a moderate dose and which 60% ? If someone had never tripped on LSD and was given a placebo, they might think it's LSD because how would they know. But if you know what an LSD trip is, I don't think it's possible to mistake a placebo for it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

tambourine_man 3y ago

Placebo is a powerful drug

bentt 3y ago

Were the subjects told “this is LSD” or were they told “this may be LSD and it may be a placebo”?

perrylaj 3y ago
I'm not sure how global the practice is, but at least in the US, you're briefed on the study as part of patient consent. They clearly tell you that nature of the study, including details about blinding, placebos that study participants may get instead of the active chemical, etc.
- akiselev 3y ago
  Informed consent was codified into international law [1] in response to Nazi and Japanese human experiments. There's a few notable exceptions like China (signed but not ratified internally) and in some cultures it may not be emphasized enough to doctors in training but it's pretty universally understood in medical ethics that lying to patients is a line we should not cross. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights#Rights_to_physical_integrity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civi...
  - aidenn0 3y ago
    That only requires consent, not informed consent. AFAIK, if someone consents to being experimented on, that law does not require you to fully inform them of the experiment, and certainly not to the degree that a typical IRB in the US requires.

jes5199 3y ago

75 is a fairly mild dose, and people can placebo themselves into some pretty extreme states

srge 3y ago
I disagree about 75 being a fairly mild dose. For a 200lbs male maybe. For a 100lbs female definitely not.
- danielbln 3y ago
  LSD doesn't scale with bodyweight, you take the same amount no matter if you're 100 or 300lbs. Apart from that, 70mcg is a mild dose on context of a regular recreational dose of 150-250mcg, but I agree that 70mcg by itself will absolutely significantly impair an inexperienced user and there is a zero percent chance you would conflate 70mcg with placebo.
  - huuman12 3y ago
    in what world is 250ug of lsd considered a “regular recreational” dose? The standard 100-125 that you get on most paper tabs is plenty to have a strong trip for the vast majority of people and 200-250ug is going to be way too strong for everyone except for the most experienced people
    - b800h 3y ago
      I remember that story about Jim Morrison going missing (before a gig or recording or something?) - he was eventually found under a bed, and all he could say was "ten thousand mics!"
    - quchen 3y ago
      I think most people get over-sold blotters. Every now and then there's a study checking how much LSD is actually on sold-as-200ug blotters, and it's typically 60-80. This also leads to heavy overdoses when getting your hands on actual 200ug blotters...

yakubin 3y ago

> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.

quchen 3y ago
Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo. If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetual effort, appear sober to the uninitiated.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  > appear sober to the uninitiated The initiated, however know exactly why your pupils are huge and you have that look on your face.
  - quchen 3y ago
    My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.
    - RosanaAnaDana 3y ago
      Im guessing you aren't injecting it
      - wholinator2 3y ago
        Are you? Getting access to liquid LSD and the means to IM or IV it are certainly not typical, or anywhere near the prevalence of access to the oral form