13 ms·

The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen.

echelon 3y ago
Thank you for this! Next up: make "side loading" apps a thing. Do it with these stipulations: 1. Make it easy, part of the normal flow. Not hidden in an obscure panel or behind three or four dialogues. 2. Make it non-scary (no negs from Apple saying you'll destroy your device or safety) 3. Make it so it isn't called something negative like "side loading", but a part of normal user behavior: "download app", "web install", etc. 4. Make it so that Apple can't degrade the app experience for these apps. If y'all can accomplish that, all will be right with the world again.
- meindnoch 3y ago
  How about you simply buying something else instead of an iPhone?
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    Since this will be required by the DMA as mentioned in another comment, the more accurate phrasing would be "How about Apple simply not selling their phones in the EU (if they don't like it)?" Just like nobody's forcing a consumer to buy an iPhone if they don't like it, nobody's forcing Apple to do business in the EU.
    - Longhanks 3y ago
      God, sometimes I really wish they would do just that. Just a week ago, Germany launched a public transport ticket that can only be acquired via an app. Imagine the outrage if suddenly every iOS owner could not use that service (paid with tax money of course) that entirely depends on US software services because the companies decided the EU bullying is just enough for now (just like Google did with China). If the EU wants to "boss around" like they do in this headline, maybe it should ensure having actual EU businesses capable of competing with US ones. But more regulation will surely do it, I’m sure, this time.
      - mmmmmbop 3y ago
        The ticket you are talking about can be purchased via website. [0] Apart from that, I'm not sure I see your point. If Apple left the EU market, their stock would tank, and Google would be delighted to pick up the market share. Your framing is interesting, by the way. When Apple puts restrictions on its users, that's corporate freedom. When the democratic legislative process of the EU results in restrictions on Apple, that's bullying. [0] https://www.bahn.de/angebot/regio/deutschland-ticket https://www.bahn.de/angebot/regio/deutschland-ticket
        Longhanks 3y ago
        Enacting laws is not bullying. Enacting laws and then issueing "warnings" about an undefined "spirit of the law" that was intended to have been followed, that's bullying. Either there is a clear law or there isn't, if your law allows behavior that you don't want, don't blame the player, blame your law and change it.
- phist_mcgee 3y ago
  And when old grandma gets hit with a fake banking app download that steals her life savings all will be right with the world as well?
  - prox 3y ago
    Yeah these suggestions often come from a place of “this is what I want” instead fully think it through. Those 4 steps and 5 warnings you need click through? Please! I don’t want to manage my family’s apple devices collection when things go wrong.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    That would happen also on a browser by going on a fake website. Actually pulling it off through a fake app sounds to me even harder to do.
  - simion314 3y ago
    Stop with the FUD. I know you have a big imagination but the reality is that I can side load apps on Android, and all the big companies that push me t install their apps are using the official store and I never see random websites showing fake links to banking apps. Guess what apps I have to side load, the apps the Stores do not allow, like Huawei app for my solar panels(iOS users will have to use the website since no side loading for them). Please other Android users, can you help to fight this FUD? why did you side load apps? Do you see fake links to fake banking of FB apps? Did some big website pushed you to side load their app instead of an app from the store ?
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      Android Play store doesn't have the same user protections as iOS Appstore. There is no reason to force sideload on Android because you can already spy on everything the user does with your Playstore apps (why would you even expect anything else from Google? The whole thing is set up for spying). That's not the case on iOS. You're comparing incomparable.
      - 3y ago
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  This has already been achieved with the Digital Markets Act, which will fully come into force by March 2024.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  Let’s stop using the ‘side loading’ euphemism and just call it ‘loading’. Let us load our own code.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Most people do not have "their own code". Instead it is your code you want me and my grandmother to load and I simply do not want to, unless you go through Apple's hurdles to check and verify it.
    - VonGallifrey 3y ago
      I don't want to jump out of a plane therefore I want to outlaw skydiving. Actually I don't have to outlaw things I don't like for myself. I will simply not go skydiving and other people are wellcome to take the risk for themselves. No one is forcing you to load anything you don't want to. You don't need to force your decision onto everyone. There is a difference between "I don't want to load your code" and "I don't want anyone to have the ability to load your code".
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - nickpp 3y ago
        If you want to jump out of the plane, please pick a provider that serves skydivers. Do not try to open the door of a regular plane from a normal airline. Moreover, please do not try to make it illegal to have airlines that don't allow opening the door during mid-flight. It makes flying more dangerous for all of us, especially those who don't happen to have a parachute around. No one is forcing you to stop loading whatever you want on your phone. Just pick a phone manufacturer that allows that. There is a difference between "I want to load anything on my phone" and "I want to load anything on any phone I choose, even from a manufacturer that specifically caters to people who are quite reluctant to load your code unchecked on their phones".
        3y ago
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  And then Facebook forces you to use their "web installer" that simply allows them to spy on everything you do on the phone :-)
  - doikor 3y ago
    The spying is still be illegal in EU without user consent no matter if it is technically possible or not.
    - nozzlegear 3y ago
      But then for those of us not in the EU, Facebook et al suddenly have access to a plethora of data they didn’t have before via side loading thanks to a European law.
      - mmmmmbop 3y ago
        No need to worry. EU laws concerning iOS only apply to products sold within the EU. Apple is within their rights to keep their operating system locked down outside the EU, and all recent reports indicate that this is exactly what they'll do. So unless your country decides to pass similar legislation, you're free to enjoy Apple's restrictions.
      - ohgodplsno 3y ago
        And so your concern is because of... the EU, and not your own politicians for failing to regulate a completely out of control corporation running psychological experiments on users without their consent ? Interesting set of priorities.
        nozzlegear 3y ago
        Where did I say I’m not concerned about my own politicians? Don’t twist my argument.
      - bcrosby95 3y ago
        It's not the EU's fault your/our government sucks.
truthexposed 3y ago
[flagged]
golemotron 3y ago
> The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen. It's going to look funny in a few years after the rest of the world moves to better technology.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  ...which the eu may then adopt.
  - golemotron 3y ago
    So on technology it will be 1st world, 2nd world, 3rd world, EU.
WanderPanda 3y ago
For me it’s the opposite, it ashames me to be an EU citizen. The problem with the EU is that it forces this kind of stuff on everyone instead of letting countries compete for the best policies. There is little/no feedback control hence it will drift down the usual decline of increasingly authoritarian systems. It‘s a shame because of the opportunity costs.
- heresie-dabord 3y ago
  > instead of letting countries compete for the best policies. The way we have let manufacturers compete to create the best standard for power adaptors?
  - lttlrck 3y ago
    Depends if you believe in letting the market decide, or not.
    - madsbuch 3y ago
      there is no market without regulation. in the old days, the government ensured that the physically strong people would not get the best deals because they could force you to give up your product. This appears to be the modern day equivalent.
      - truthexposed 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - lttlrck 3y ago
        Regulations should level the playing field, per your example. This doesn't do anything like that.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    Do you mean the plug in the wall for adapters? Assuming so but please correct me if I’m wrong. :) Not the hill I’m going to die on, but doesn’t the lack of change kind of prove the point? Is what we have today the absolute best thing we could have? There’s probably room for innovation here. It’s a balance right? Not changing is good but also… it can’t get any better. With consumer electronic devices we’d still be using DVI ports and the red/yellow/white audio video cables had this legislation come into existence only a few years back. Important to remember that. That being said I think Apple should support USB-C across all devices because it’s just damn good. I was irritated they added the HDMI port back actually. Hopefully they’ll remove it in the future again and just keep USB-C everything. From what I understand Thunderbolt is actually a pretty good implantation it’s just proprietary for Apple. That’s fine. I also understand Apple’s desire to maintain a minimum level of quality for USB-C cables being plugged into the iPhone. I’m not sure why that’s controversial.
kaliszad 3y ago
The EU can do some amazing things, however there are also many problems. The recent https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/eu-cra-secure-coding-solution/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/eu-cra-secure-coding-solut... seems particularly dangerous. Also don't read about the Pfizer vaccine deal with the EU/ von der Leyen. You might loose your trust/ happiness very quickly. Of course, the EU's handling of the Ukraine/ Russia crisis is particularly bad as well, the war could have been over by now. I mean, many Ukrainian people are dying in vain.
dfawcus 3y ago
Maybe, maybe not. I've just bought some new iDevices _now_, in order that they come with Lightning ports, rather than the anticipated USB C on the next model. Specifically because the Lightning port seems the more robust (and easily cleaned) of the two, for a device which will spend a significant chunk of the next 3-5 years in pockets, picking up lint and other dirt. Relative charging and data transfer speeds seem less of an issue than the practical issues. I've less concern about USB-C on laptops, tablets, etc. Simply because their operating environment will be less challenging.
nologic01 3y ago
never understood the anti-regulatory vitriol expressed by normal people (that is people who would not directly benefit from the absence of regulation but actually have much to lose), especially in the US (but UK's Brexit ideology used the regulatory overreach accusation against the EU to "good" effect too - the "curved banana" absurdity). from the food we eat, the medicine we take, the cars we drive, the planes we fly, the banks with bank with, and, dare I say, the digital technology we have, the quality of our experience relies 100% on there being strong, non-captured, informed, hands-on regulation that tries on an ongoing basis to correct market failures (for which there is a mountain of damning historical experience) remove regulation and energy companies will put poison in your car tank and they will destroy the atmosphere, banks will fall apart and your life savings will evaporate, planes will be flown with minimal tests and collapse and you will be inside, techs will pilfer and sell your behavioral profile to the highest bidder self-regulation is a tool that works in certain circumstances but definitely cannot be relied upon across the board. especially not in oligopolistic conditions where better alternatives will struggle to receive traction. especially not on the face of our economies having ignored entirely the environmental damage of throwaway electronic devices and plastic pollution what is the risk of veering to the opposite side, actual regulatory overreach, that is somehow gratuitous and does not simply try to correct some market failure? At worst it may delay things here and there. Taking a step back and looking at the outcomes of "the move fast and break things" ideology, that might not be a bad thing at all
neximo64 3y ago
It sounds exciting, but it doesn't sound great for business. No surprise there is no new company in the DAX, CAC40.. etc in edging towards half a century now. There is a trade off in terms of the economic condition and that can be seen in European salaries and the brain drain which reinforces it. It isn't all good for the longer term, but if a majority of people like it, be careful what you wish for.
musicale 3y ago
Apple's "sweet solution" will be to provide a USB charging case or dongle that is permanently welded to every EU iPhone.

Thank you for this! Next up: make "side loading" apps a thing. Do it with these stipulations: 1. Make it easy, part of the normal flow. Not hidden in an obscure panel or behind three or four dialogues. 2. Make it non-scary (no negs from Apple saying you'll destroy your device or safety) 3. Make it so it isn't called something negative like "side loading", but a part of normal user behavior: "download app", "web install", etc. 4. Make it so that Apple can't degrade the app experience for these apps. If y'all can accomplish that, all will be right with the world again.

meindnoch 3y ago
How about you simply buying something else instead of an iPhone?
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  Since this will be required by the DMA as mentioned in another comment, the more accurate phrasing would be "How about Apple simply not selling their phones in the EU (if they don't like it)?" Just like nobody's forcing a consumer to buy an iPhone if they don't like it, nobody's forcing Apple to do business in the EU.
  - Longhanks 3y ago
    God, sometimes I really wish they would do just that. Just a week ago, Germany launched a public transport ticket that can only be acquired via an app. Imagine the outrage if suddenly every iOS owner could not use that service (paid with tax money of course) that entirely depends on US software services because the companies decided the EU bullying is just enough for now (just like Google did with China). If the EU wants to "boss around" like they do in this headline, maybe it should ensure having actual EU businesses capable of competing with US ones. But more regulation will surely do it, I’m sure, this time.
    - mmmmmbop 3y ago
      The ticket you are talking about can be purchased via website. [0] Apart from that, I'm not sure I see your point. If Apple left the EU market, their stock would tank, and Google would be delighted to pick up the market share. Your framing is interesting, by the way. When Apple puts restrictions on its users, that's corporate freedom. When the democratic legislative process of the EU results in restrictions on Apple, that's bullying. [0] https://www.bahn.de/angebot/regio/deutschland-ticket https://www.bahn.de/angebot/regio/deutschland-ticket
      - Longhanks 3y ago
        Enacting laws is not bullying. Enacting laws and then issueing "warnings" about an undefined "spirit of the law" that was intended to have been followed, that's bullying. Either there is a clear law or there isn't, if your law allows behavior that you don't want, don't blame the player, blame your law and change it.
phist_mcgee 3y ago
And when old grandma gets hit with a fake banking app download that steals her life savings all will be right with the world as well?
- prox 3y ago
  Yeah these suggestions often come from a place of “this is what I want” instead fully think it through. Those 4 steps and 5 warnings you need click through? Please! I don’t want to manage my family’s apple devices collection when things go wrong.
- epolanski 3y ago
  That would happen also on a browser by going on a fake website. Actually pulling it off through a fake app sounds to me even harder to do.
- simion314 3y ago
  Stop with the FUD. I know you have a big imagination but the reality is that I can side load apps on Android, and all the big companies that push me t install their apps are using the official store and I never see random websites showing fake links to banking apps. Guess what apps I have to side load, the apps the Stores do not allow, like Huawei app for my solar panels(iOS users will have to use the website since no side loading for them). Please other Android users, can you help to fight this FUD? why did you side load apps? Do you see fake links to fake banking of FB apps? Did some big website pushed you to side load their app instead of an app from the store ?
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    Android Play store doesn't have the same user protections as iOS Appstore. There is no reason to force sideload on Android because you can already spy on everything the user does with your Playstore apps (why would you even expect anything else from Google? The whole thing is set up for spying). That's not the case on iOS. You're comparing incomparable.
    - 3y ago
mmmmmbop 3y ago
This has already been achieved with the Digital Markets Act, which will fully come into force by March 2024.
bluescrn 3y ago
Let’s stop using the ‘side loading’ euphemism and just call it ‘loading’. Let us load our own code.
- nickpp 3y ago
  Most people do not have "their own code". Instead it is your code you want me and my grandmother to load and I simply do not want to, unless you go through Apple's hurdles to check and verify it.
  - VonGallifrey 3y ago
    I don't want to jump out of a plane therefore I want to outlaw skydiving. Actually I don't have to outlaw things I don't like for myself. I will simply not go skydiving and other people are wellcome to take the risk for themselves. No one is forcing you to load anything you don't want to. You don't need to force your decision onto everyone. There is a difference between "I don't want to load your code" and "I don't want anyone to have the ability to load your code".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - nickpp 3y ago
      If you want to jump out of the plane, please pick a provider that serves skydivers. Do not try to open the door of a regular plane from a normal airline. Moreover, please do not try to make it illegal to have airlines that don't allow opening the door during mid-flight. It makes flying more dangerous for all of us, especially those who don't happen to have a parachute around. No one is forcing you to stop loading whatever you want on your phone. Just pick a phone manufacturer that allows that. There is a difference between "I want to load anything on my phone" and "I want to load anything on any phone I choose, even from a manufacturer that specifically caters to people who are quite reluctant to load your code unchecked on their phones".
      - 3y ago
throwaway50606 3y ago
And then Facebook forces you to use their "web installer" that simply allows them to spy on everything you do on the phone :-)
- doikor 3y ago
  The spying is still be illegal in EU without user consent no matter if it is technically possible or not.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    But then for those of us not in the EU, Facebook et al suddenly have access to a plethora of data they didn’t have before via side loading thanks to a European law.
    - mmmmmbop 3y ago
      No need to worry. EU laws concerning iOS only apply to products sold within the EU. Apple is within their rights to keep their operating system locked down outside the EU, and all recent reports indicate that this is exactly what they'll do. So unless your country decides to pass similar legislation, you're free to enjoy Apple's restrictions.
    - ohgodplsno 3y ago
      And so your concern is because of... the EU, and not your own politicians for failing to regulate a completely out of control corporation running psychological experiments on users without their consent ? Interesting set of priorities.
      - nozzlegear 3y ago
        Where did I say I’m not concerned about my own politicians? Don’t twist my argument.
    - bcrosby95 3y ago
      It's not the EU's fault your/our government sucks.

truthexposed 3y ago

[flagged]

golemotron 3y ago

> The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen. It's going to look funny in a few years after the rest of the world moves to better technology.

InCityDreams 3y ago
...which the eu may then adopt.
- golemotron 3y ago
  So on technology it will be 1st world, 2nd world, 3rd world, EU.

WanderPanda 3y ago

For me it’s the opposite, it ashames me to be an EU citizen. The problem with the EU is that it forces this kind of stuff on everyone instead of letting countries compete for the best policies. There is little/no feedback control hence it will drift down the usual decline of increasingly authoritarian systems. It‘s a shame because of the opportunity costs.

heresie-dabord 3y ago
> instead of letting countries compete for the best policies. The way we have let manufacturers compete to create the best standard for power adaptors?
- lttlrck 3y ago
  Depends if you believe in letting the market decide, or not.
  - madsbuch 3y ago
    there is no market without regulation. in the old days, the government ensured that the physically strong people would not get the best deals because they could force you to give up your product. This appears to be the modern day equivalent.
    - truthexposed 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - lttlrck 3y ago
      Regulations should level the playing field, per your example. This doesn't do anything like that.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Do you mean the plug in the wall for adapters? Assuming so but please correct me if I’m wrong. :) Not the hill I’m going to die on, but doesn’t the lack of change kind of prove the point? Is what we have today the absolute best thing we could have? There’s probably room for innovation here. It’s a balance right? Not changing is good but also… it can’t get any better. With consumer electronic devices we’d still be using DVI ports and the red/yellow/white audio video cables had this legislation come into existence only a few years back. Important to remember that. That being said I think Apple should support USB-C across all devices because it’s just damn good. I was irritated they added the HDMI port back actually. Hopefully they’ll remove it in the future again and just keep USB-C everything. From what I understand Thunderbolt is actually a pretty good implantation it’s just proprietary for Apple. That’s fine. I also understand Apple’s desire to maintain a minimum level of quality for USB-C cables being plugged into the iPhone. I’m not sure why that’s controversial.

kaliszad 3y ago

The EU can do some amazing things, however there are also many problems. The recent https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/eu-cra-secure-coding-solution/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/eu-cra-secure-coding-solut... seems particularly dangerous. Also don't read about the Pfizer vaccine deal with the EU/ von der Leyen. You might loose your trust/ happiness very quickly. Of course, the EU's handling of the Ukraine/ Russia crisis is particularly bad as well, the war could have been over by now. I mean, many Ukrainian people are dying in vain.

dfawcus 3y ago

Maybe, maybe not. I've just bought some new iDevices _now_, in order that they come with Lightning ports, rather than the anticipated USB C on the next model. Specifically because the Lightning port seems the more robust (and easily cleaned) of the two, for a device which will spend a significant chunk of the next 3-5 years in pockets, picking up lint and other dirt. Relative charging and data transfer speeds seem less of an issue than the practical issues. I've less concern about USB-C on laptops, tablets, etc. Simply because their operating environment will be less challenging.

nologic01 3y ago

never understood the anti-regulatory vitriol expressed by normal people (that is people who would not directly benefit from the absence of regulation but actually have much to lose), especially in the US (but UK's Brexit ideology used the regulatory overreach accusation against the EU to "good" effect too - the "curved banana" absurdity). from the food we eat, the medicine we take, the cars we drive, the planes we fly, the banks with bank with, and, dare I say, the digital technology we have, the quality of our experience relies 100% on there being strong, non-captured, informed, hands-on regulation that tries on an ongoing basis to correct market failures (for which there is a mountain of damning historical experience) remove regulation and energy companies will put poison in your car tank and they will destroy the atmosphere, banks will fall apart and your life savings will evaporate, planes will be flown with minimal tests and collapse and you will be inside, techs will pilfer and sell your behavioral profile to the highest bidder self-regulation is a tool that works in certain circumstances but definitely cannot be relied upon across the board. especially not in oligopolistic conditions where better alternatives will struggle to receive traction. especially not on the face of our economies having ignored entirely the environmental damage of throwaway electronic devices and plastic pollution what is the risk of veering to the opposite side, actual regulatory overreach, that is somehow gratuitous and does not simply try to correct some market failure? At worst it may delay things here and there. Taking a step back and looking at the outcomes of "the move fast and break things" ideology, that might not be a bad thing at all

neximo64 3y ago

It sounds exciting, but it doesn't sound great for business. No surprise there is no new company in the DAX, CAC40.. etc in edging towards half a century now. There is a trade off in terms of the economic condition and that can be seen in European salaries and the brain drain which reinforces it. It isn't all good for the longer term, but if a majority of people like it, be careful what you wish for.

musicale 3y ago

Apple's "sweet solution" will be to provide a USB charging case or dongle that is permanently welded to every EU iPhone.