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The businessman and the fisherman (1963)
- dbgev 3y agoA few years later, the fisherman gets an expensive, debilitating disease and dies penniless and destitute and alone. But at least he had fun before that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- FourthProtocol 3y agoWell, apparently the story was conceived by a German, in which case the social system would catch him, provide the health care he needs, and when recovered he'd be back on that beach...
- bestouff 3y agoAnywhere in Europe actually.
- rolisz 3y agoEurope is big, made of many different countries, with very different policies on public health care and very different standards for that public health care. For example, in Romania (part of the EU!), the big cities usually have good hospitals, but if you're in villages or smaller cities, good luck! Also, to be able to benefit from free public health care, there's a list of conditions you have to meet, it's not available by default to anyone. The requirements are quite reasonable (be employed, be on maternity leave, be in school, etc.), But there are people who are not covered.
- kortilla 3y agoBut who pays for these social services to pay the doctors that heal him?
- klipt 3y agoImmigrants waiting to get citizenship so they can enjoy the same safety net.
- nicbou 3y agoResidents also enjoy the same safety net. German social benefits do no distinguish on status. The only exception is if your residence permit is tied to your employment, in which case it’s a little more complicated, but only due to the horribly slow immigration office.
- raincole 3y agoIt sounds a lot like a ponzi, doesn't it?
- petre 3y agoIt's also quite improbable when one lives stress free. Also, looking at the water clears your head and makes you more productive in the end. Maybe if one engages in rock fishing or cliff jigging and slips off a wet rock, they could get a debilitating accident. Didn't like for years it but I've finally taken up sport fishing myself last year, after a Greek taught me how they do it and let me try. Shore spinning can be very relaxing and one can enjoy water sports at the sea even in a Bf 4 breeze or during swell conditions when the red flag is up. https://youtu.be/ayZ-x8CWH4k https://youtu.be/ayZ-x8CWH4k Now if I go to the seaside I also bring my tackle along with the wetsuit and swimming goggles. In some countries you need a fishing permit (Croatia, Italy). In Greece you only need it for commercial fishing.
- nickpp 3y agoMy grandfather was a fisherman. Had a massive heart attack that killed him at 60. I barely met him. Years of hard work, exposure to the elements, the ever-present stress of the next catch, family worries and a general life of subsistence were not kind to him. He was "lucky" he died too, if he survived he would've faced a disabled life in a place with no health care or general services beyond basic. Such was the life on the remote undeveloped seaside. His wife and kids though surely would have liked to be left with something more than the fishing tools, boat and shack...
- petre 3y agoYou realise I wasn't talking about commercial or subsistence fishing.
- rcme 3y agoHe doesn’t die alone. His children and wife watch him die. Without him, they must toil endlessly to survive.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y agoHis son already got into YC2024, via his participation in a worker-owned tech coop that is bringing big data, AI and crowd sourcing to the fishing business. His wife, who in the 1800s, would never have been recognized for her work, is today known as one of her country's greatest contemporary sculptors, and has exhibited at Tate Modern, the Guggenheim and has a show next month in Rio. The fisherman used to talk with pride about his family's accomplishments when sipping retsina with his friends on the dock.
- s1mplicissimus 3y agoi wonder how the fisherman got to know and marry an internationally successful artist and what are the odds of that happening...
- neilknowsbest 3y agoHe's a retired businessman. They met, by chance, years ago when he was in South Korea to close the construction contract for his 50-boat fishing fleet with Hyundai.
- endisneigh 3y agoWouldn’t the same thing happen even if he were rich?
- windowsrookie 3y agoSo he still lived a happy an fulfilling life doing exactly what he wanted. Sounds good to me.
- its_bbq 3y agoBetter to enjoy your life before your debilitating disease than to be miserable up until your debilitating disease. The fisherman was going to die anyways.
- BeFlatXIII 3y agoWe are all racing to the same destination.
- claudiulodro 3y agoI'd wager there are more ways to die in modern society than in the fisherman's village. If we're speculating, a few years later the businessman gets hit by a truck crossing the street, or addicted to opiates, or has a heart attack from his sedentary lifestyle. And he doesn't even seem to have had much fun before that!
- throwuwu 3y agoAnd 30 years later the businessman dies of old age, alone in a fancy care home with only his nurse there to watch him pass and his last words are “if only I had listened to the fisherman”
- ericmcer 3y agoYeah healthcare is the one thing I want financial security for. Big house, nice car, expensive food is all whatever, but I have some weird paranoia that in the next 30-40 years some longevity treatment will start rolling out or I will develop some condition that I will be priced out of.
- fogzen 3y agoLove what you do and you’ll never work a day in your life. Let’s be honest: fishing in the USA is a tough full time job, even if you love it. You can’t relax by the ocean catching a few fish to pay rent and support your family.
- rig777 3y agoI remember this from the old book "the 4 hour work week", it was a good read and really was ahead of the curve even though it was cheesy at times.
- dang 3y agoAnybody want to take a crack at tracing the origin of this one?
- znq 3y ago"[...] it looks like the original story was written by German writer Heinrich Böll in “Anekdote zur Senkung der Arbeitsmoral” (“Anecdote concerning the Lowering of Productivity”) and published in 1963." Source: https://www.sloww.co/tourist-fisherman/# https://www.sloww.co/tourist-fisherman/#
- cyber_kinetist 3y agoIt’s a classic folklore story that seems to be present in many different cultures. (Found a Brazilian one: https://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the-businessman/ https://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/04/the-fisherman-and-the...) For a classic Western version, see Plutarch’s story: ‘What the favourite of the King of Epirus said to his master may be applied to all men in the ordinary situations of human life. When the king had recounted to him, in their proper order, all the conquests which he proposed to make, and had come to the last of them; “And what does your Majesty propose to do then?” said the Favourite. “I propose then,” said the King, “to enjoy myself with my friends, and endeavour to be good company over a bottle.” “And what hinders your Majesty from doing so now?” replied the Favourite.’
- smsm42 3y agoProbably some ancient Indian tale - because most of the wandering tales we're using today come from ancient Indian stories (by way of Persians, Arabs, Greeks, etc. - as the trade goes, do the stories). If that's the case, the origin is probably impossible to determine.
- GlassOwAter 3y agoTwist: the fisherman is already rich and has a fleet doing his work.
- s1mplicissimus 3y agotwist twist: the fisherman is a retired startup millionaire who wants to stay incognito and just trolls the businessman
- 11235813213455 3y agoand is waiting for one of the boat to come back and give him some fish, because he doesn't know how to fish himself and be patient after he spent all those years making business instead
- ftxbro 3y agothis is 'the parable of the mexican fisherman' it's the kind of story that is in every book like 7 habits of effective people or 4 hour work week or probably books by Malcolm Gladwell or ones like him
- petesergeant 3y ago7 Habits is a great book everyone should read
- davidw 3y ago> First off, I'd suggest buying "Seven Habits of Highly Successful People", and NOT read it. Burn it, it's a great symbolic gesture. -- Linus Torvalds Myself... I'm not that extreme, but the good ideas from so many business books could be summed up in a few paragraphs.
- petesergeant 3y ago> the good ideas from so many business books could be summed up in a few paragraphs Sure. You can also forgo reading most fiction by simply reading the Wikipedia plot summary.
- blowski 3y agoGiven limited time, I’d rather read War and Peace in its entirety, and a blog post on 7 Habits.
- LaundroMat 3y agoMost non-fiction has little literary value (which consists of more than plot) though.
- petesergeant 3y agoSure, and most good self-help books have examples and rephrasing and re-examining of ideas to help the ideas take root, which is lost in a blog post summarising it
- erulabs 3y agoNot a story you’d hear in a poor fishing village I’d imagine.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- mikrl 3y agoThat fisherman’s name? Albert Einstein. (Then everyone clapped, and a bald eagle flew overhead and shed a tear on the etc etc bla bla shitpost on a shitpost)
- ftxbro 3y agoit's what the people want
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- awaythrow483 3y agoThe story from the wall on Jimmy John's?
- oatmeal1 3y agoI'd like an extended version of the story where the businessman realizes he's wrong, invites all his friends to give up their lives in the business-world and revert to subsistence living that provides freedom. Then society collapses because if everyone is doing the bare minimum, there isn't anything left over for basic government services.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y agoNobody said that the fisherman is engaged in subsistence living. I'd also like a citation on the claim that "basic government services" require profit-making (and presumably taxation to go with it) that is substantively different than the fisherman's approach to life.
- smsm42 3y agoGovernment services obviously require a resource surplus (and some mechanism to direct that surplus to paying for these services, of which taxation is the most common one). If everybody are chill fishermen, there's no surplus - there's no reason for the fisherman to create one.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y agoSurplus can come in the form of a small number of large surpluses, or a large number of small ones. The fisherman is quite capable of being part of the latter example.
- smsm42 3y agoHe is capable, but the whole point of the story is that he doesn't want to use this capability, and is lauded for that.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y agoHe doesn't wish to organize his life around maximizing his output. The entire point of the story is to get people to consider to what extent that makes sense, and under what circumstances. If you consider a good life to be precisely how the fisherman already lives, it takes a rather compelling argument (and it make even require compelling force) that he should behave otherwise.
- slushh 3y agoHasn't that happened in Somalia? There were happy fishermen until their fishing grounds were depleted by businessmen and their big boats which led to the pirate industry? On land, it's hunter gatherers and farming or logging.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoYeah everyone here is totally missing this point “Who would make the iPhones then?” Nobody cause they wouldn’t exist
- kortilla 3y agoNo they aren’t. They are pointing out that it’s a childlike fantasy that ends in pain and agony because a society based on subsistence is missing basic things like anti-bacterials, insulin, anesthesia for surgery, etc.
- namaria 3y agoThe remedy to pain and agony is opium not modern medicine. Stretching out the lives of workers is an economic imperative not a humanistic one. Our fear of suffering and death makes us easy to manipulate.
- kortilla 3y agoMy grandfather got a heart surgery and a pace maker and lived 20 more years gardening, going to the cabin, helping raise his grandkids, and playing cards daily with his wife. Those 20 years were arguably many of the best of his life considering he grew up in the Great Depression and then went to world war 2. Getting ripped on opium is no different than getting ripped on morphine. Modern medice has that too. The difference is that modern medicine has far more tools in the bag before something becomes a terminal illness.
- carabiner 3y agoThe closest parallel might be how native americans lived for thousands of years subsisting on the land. The level of sustainable living they maintained was extraordinary. Everything from 3 sisters farming, to fish stocking in lakes, to controlled burns to prevent wildfires... they found a harmony with their environment to just live enough, and no more. > How cruel the whites are: their lips are thin, their noses sharp, their faces furrowed and distorted by holes. Their eyes have a staring expression. They are always seeking something. What are they seeking? The whites always want something, they are always uneasy and restless. We do not know what they want, we do not understand them, we think that they are mad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochwiay_Biano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochwiay_Biano
- virtualwhys 3y agoIn a similar spirit there's Tolstoy's classic short story, "How Much Land Does a Man Need?" [1] I'd start just before chapter V if you want to get right into it -- the ending is truly delicious, and quite inline with OP's story, enjoy. [1] http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2738/ http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2738/
- namaria 3y agoI could guess the ending from the title... As great a writer as Tolstoy is this one was a pretty obvious conclusion. We're all here temporarily anyway, amassing wealth on expense of health and well being is a fool's errand. Sure misery is frightening, but I find we sell our dignity too cheaply because of that fear. A life of servitude, selling nearly half our waking time in the prime of our time for fear of destitution strikes me as madness. Wouldn't it be preferable to die than to live with a leash, as golden as it may be painted? The comforts we can buy, of gadgets, big house, big car, fancy travel... As long as we report back and spend 90% of the year saying 'yes sir' to boss, client or market. What have we become? Well dressed, comfy serfs.
- nicbou 3y agoIt was used by historian Anthony Beevor when talking about the German invasion of the USSR.
- tut-urut-utut 3y agoShort story by Tolstoy… chapter V… Short and concise indeed. But then again, I read full Ana Karenina, and it was worth it.
- vrglvrglvrgl 3y ago[dead]
- peteforde 3y agoWhile I appreciate the message, the experience of creating and running a successful business really does get a bad rap. Yes, there are pains and stresses along the way... as with most things worth doing. However, the feeling of having created something is just as satisfying to some as sculpting or fishing to others. There's also something to be said about creating meaningful employment for the people in your community.
- Animats 3y agoEven if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
- throwawaysalome 3y ago[flagged]
- fwlr 3y agoThere’s a related story, unfortunately not quite as neatly packaged, and it’s about taxi drivers. A businessman gets into a taxi and starts talking to the taxi driver about (of course) business. The taxi driver is in a great mood and explains that today is a good day, this is his last trip since he has made the $400 he aims to make in just two hours. The businessman asks him what a bad day looks like, and the taxi driver says he might have to drive for ten hours to make that $400, and he’s miserable the whole time. The businessman asks why he stops at that specific number, and the taxi driver replies that he starts out $300 ‘in the hole’ for car and medallion rental, so he has to make that back plus some more for his take-home pay. The businessman suggests to the taxi driver that good days like these are when he should do his epic ten hour shifts, and he should go home early on the bad days even if he loses money that day, as the extra money from the good days will more than cover the small losses on the bad days. I guess the moral of both of these stories put together is that sometimes businessmen have good advice and sometimes they don’t.
- passion__desire 3y agoBusinessman (American) vs Fisherman (European), if we try to assign cultural values to these characters.
- jerrre 3y agoThere's a very broad range of (work) cultures within Europe, broader than the avg of US vs avg of EU of there was such a thing.
- dazc 3y agoSince driving a taxi isn't hard work he should just do 'epic' ten hour shifts every day.
- gremlinunderway 3y agoI hope I'm missing the sarcasm or irony but saying driving a taxi isn't hard work is a really ignorant comment. It's the kind of privileged statement coming from naive knowledge workers who believe that intellectual challenges are the ultimate measurement of difficulty. Personally, I think having a job where your only challenge is solving puzzles is one of the most privileged and lucky one could have, especially if it pays well. I'd invite anyone who's a knowledge worker to go work a 'dumb' job for multiple, mindnumbing and nonstop hours. Love this idea that taxis and McDonald's aren't "hard work" and therefore undeserving of respect or fair payment. Hardest jobs I've ever had were those that were the most boring and you were explicitly unable to distract yourself to get through the day. Driving a taxi would actually be up there for me in terms of difficulty because at least if you were doing some repetitive manual labour like washing cars you could throw on music/podcast, zone out and you'd be healthier on your feet all day. Driving a taxi means you have to go through repetitive, mind-numbingly boring operations for hours a day, but the whole time you have to maintain focus to avoid accidents. You cant watch anything, and because you have customers who might not like what you're playing, you probably don't have a choice in what music you listen to either. You're sitting all day barely moving, so by the end of the day you're completely stiff and don't even have the satisfaction of having physically worked hard.
- nicbou 3y agoPeople love to take this story apart. I always took the message as “stop when you have enough”. It’s a lesson about contentment. I have enough, and I turned my entrepreneurial spirit towards public good instead of revenue. I take days off when it’s sunny, and reintroduced play into my work. I am back to Paul Graham’s “do things that don’t scale”. I am dismayed by the amount of greed among people far wealthier than me. Their quest to grow a number beyond rational purposes causes them and a lot of people around them immense grief. We would all benefit if they worked on other goals.
- anonu 3y agoMaybe it's not money that motivates some people? Money is just a marker of success in this game. The real achievement might be building a business or growing a product or out competing a competitor.
- nicbou 3y agoMoney might just become a convenient metric, because it can be traded for whatever your other metrics are later. In any case, the pursuit of money beyond meeting your own needs is more often than not destructive. I find that this story is a good reminder that you can have a financial goal beyond which you enter maintenance mode and focus on other things.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoMoney is the metric for power At the highest levels it’s about power and control and shaping the world to what you want it to be It’s all neurotic anxiety about not having the ability to do whatever you want unimpeded forever and generating “generational wealth” so that literally your kids kids kids will be ensured that they don’t have to go to public school Go live around billionaires a while and it’s blatantly obvious that everything is just about calming fears and anxieties but with a never ending desire to get more on behalf of whatever in group they relate.
- stcroixx 3y agoOr causing a lot of people immense grief.
- h99 3y agoIf you are rich, you can enjoy the beach. You can’t do the same if you are poor and have a family to feed.
- ProllyInfamous 3y agoThe only time I was ever homeless (about forty days, well over a decade ago) I slept between beaches and couches, and quickly discovered that having one's own secure space is essential to healthy living. Although I was worth less than nothing (i.e. negative money from CC/student loans), these are among my happiest days. Once I found employment as a nanny/driver I was allowed to sleep in the servant's quarters — and eventually built my own room in an unused garage. Definitely having a family to feed, in addition to one's self, would make this kind of lifestyle impossible — but I fear as wealth inequality increases, and more people are living in multi-generational living arrangements: family entrapment (both caring for children and parents) will increasingly be how destitute get by [taking care of them]. I will never be homeless again. Just an awful existence.
- Archelaos 3y agoThe far more elegant original version is from Heinrich Böll (1972 Nobel laureate in literature) and is entitled: "Anekdote zur Senkung der Arbeitsmoral", published in English as "Anecdote Concerning the Lowering of Productivity" (but literally translated: "Anecdote on Lowering the Work Ethic"). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbeitsmoral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arbei...
- idlewords 3y agoThis is like the Footprints poem for founderbros.
- gavinhoward 3y agoI'm starting a business. No, it's not a startup. It is just a business to take care of my wife and me. This is why. This story is what I tell people when they say I should make it a startup.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoI’m doing similar so I think the tide is changing
- doctor_eval 3y agoI call mine a startup but… same as you, I considered investment and growth, but having been down that path a couple of times, instead decided to just set modest goals and work hard to achieve them. I feel better already.
- MaintenanceMode 3y agoHyper capitalism is destroying everything. It’s just a question of whether we chose to change course.
- Simon_O_Rourke 3y agoAbove a few million it's simply an ego thing, it's what keeps folks like Jeff Bezos paying his staff a pittance so he can accrue more wealth.
- antimora 3y agoWow. That's a great response by everyone. I posted this link after finding out of its existence when I asked ChatGPT if there was a similar story to my Dad's anecdote he used to tell. My dad past away and I always kept thinking about this story. ChatGPT recognized and point me to the other stories similar to his. Here it is: """ An elderly man was strolling when he noticed a young man lying under a tree, appearing relaxed. Curious, the elderly man asked him why he was resting and doing nothing. The young man responded with a question of his own, "Why should I do anything?" The elderly man, slightly puzzled, answered that by doing something, the young man could become rich. The young man inquired, "Why do I need to be rich?" The elderly man explained that being rich would allow him to have everything he wanted and ultimately do nothing. The young man responded with a smile, "Well, I'm already doing nothing. """ Also I asked ChatGPT about different philosophical aspect of the story: """ This anecdote touches upon several philosophical themes, including the nature of happiness, the purpose of work, and the concept of wealth. Here are some angles we can consider: 1. Hedonism: The young man's attitude can be seen as hedonistic, as he focuses on enjoying the present moment and experiencing pleasure by doing nothing. This philosophy prioritizes personal satisfaction, suggesting that happiness is found in the pursuit of pleasurable experiences. 2. The Paradox of Work and Wealth: The elderly man's response reflects a societal belief that hard work and accumulating wealth are necessary for a fulfilling life. However, the young man challenges this belief by demonstrating that he has already achieved a state of relaxation and contentment without wealth. This highlights the paradox that people often work hard to achieve a state of happiness or relaxation that they could have experienced without the need for wealth or material possessions. 3. Simple Living: The young man's perspective can be seen as an endorsement of a minimalist or simple living philosophy, which values experiences and well-being over material possessions. This viewpoint suggests that happiness can be found in a simple, unencumbered lifestyle that prioritizes personal fulfillment over the pursuit of wealth. 4. The Myth of Sisyphus: The anecdote can be seen as a variation on the story of Sisyphus, a character from Greek mythology who is condemned to roll a boulder up a hill only for it to roll back down each time. This story is often used as a metaphor for the human struggle to find meaning and purpose in life. In this anecdote, the young man has seemingly found his own sense of meaning by rejecting the common belief that wealth and success are necessary for happiness. 5. Taoism and Wu Wei: The young man's attitude can be linked to the Taoist concept of wu wei, which means "non-action" or "effortless action." This philosophy emphasizes the importance of living in harmony with the natural flow of life and not forcing change or action. By lying under the tree and doing nothing, the young man could be seen as embodying the concept of wu wei. 6. The Pursuit of Happiness: The anecdote raises the question of what it means to be happy and how to achieve happiness. Both the elderly man and the young man have different perspectives on what is necessary for happiness. This can lead to a broader discussion on the nature of happiness and the various ways individuals seek to attain it. These are just a few philosophical angles that can be derived from this anecdote. The story serves as a starting point for deeper discussions on the meaning of life, happiness, and the value of work and wealth in modern society. """