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NiMH was far superior to lead acid, superior to nicad, and much cheaper than lithium ion. The biggest issue with NiMH was that it was heavily encumbered by pat

NiMH was far superior to lead acid, superior to nicad, and much cheaper than lithium ion. The biggest issue with NiMH was that it was heavily encumbered by patents owned by Ovonics / Cobasys, who were acquired by Texaco and then Chevron...who did everything they could to prohibit the battery tech from getting into electric vehicles, with (among other things) Texaco/Chevron having universal right to "veto" any proposed sale/use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_au...

cyberax 4y ago
Sure. Oil companies tried to delay EVs, but I just don't think it really mattered. Practical EVs happened just about as soon as they became feasible, once the enabling technologies fully matured. Even the best NiMh batteries were inferior to the worst LiIon batteries from the early 2000-s. RAV4 EV was pretty much the best example of what is possible with NiMh, and it was pretty weak: 70hp motor, top speed of 80mph, range of 90 miles.
- omgwtfbyobbq 4y ago
  I think it did and still does matter. Slowing battery development also slowed other aspects of EV tech. To be fair, most auto manufacturers weren't and to some degree still aren't fully on board with even their own EVs. If it wasn't for companies like BYD, Tesla, etc, pushing EVs forward, I think we'd still be stuck with compliance cars. NiMH wasn't great though. I think the best was the NiMH EV1 at 142 miles of range.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Was battery technology actually slowed? When Tesla began mass-producing EVs, they were using off-the-shelf vendor batteries. It seems like if anything the battery tech was ahead of the EV wave, having been driven by thin and light ultraportable computers.
    - hoofhearted 4y ago
      The two guys who created Tesla were the same guys who created the e-reader, which would become the kindle. They took their knowledge from the kindle batteries and put it into a car. P.S. Tesla has always used off the shelf vendor batteries. Panasonic has their separate section within the Tesla factories where they are mass producing regular looking batteries that are then assembled in series.
  - cyberax 4y ago
    > I think it did and still does matter. Slowing battery development also slowed other aspects of EV tech. I just don't see it. The first LiIon EVs had very little technology that was not off-the shelf. Roadster was quite literally a bunch of laptop batteries bolted onto a car frame. It's not that hard to make an expensive EV.
    - omgwtfbyobbq 3y ago
      Ignoring improvements in battery tech, look at what BYD/Tesla are doing now with packaging/production/aero/etc. https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-tesla-model-y-work-of-art-report/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-tesla-model-y-work-of-a... Most auto production is optimized for ICEs. Even 20+ years ago, Toyota's engineers knew there was plenty to do in the EV space. https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1995235_1995384_1995781,00.html https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28... The problem was/is that optimizing EVs will undercut ICE sales, so Toyota just ignored what their engineers said for decades to maintain the status quo and, like most legacy auto manufacturers, fell behind newcomers in the EV space.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    The batteries are still pretty expensive. The EV1 probably cost like $150,000+ in 2023 dollars just to build, so they've made lots of progress, but electric vehicles don't beat comparable conventional vehicles across the board, they have better performance and lower operating costs, and that's most of it.
- kccqzy 4y ago
  The 2011 Nissan Leaf wasn't much better than that RAV4 EV: a quick search showed that the 2011 Nissan Leaf had a 107-hp motor, 92 mph top speed, and a 92-mile range.
Aloha 4y ago
> NiMH was far superior to lead acid, superior to nicad, and much cheaper than lithium ion. Except on a couple accounts - Memory and Lifetime. NiMH batteries have almost as bad as a memory effect as NiCD, and have a low lifetime cycle count compared to lead acid. I dont think you could put NiMH batteries in a production car, at any point, without designing the battery pack to be cheaply and easily replaced. NiMH batteries are far more of a consumable than even Lithium batteries are. There are also real limits on how much current an NiMH battery can deliver in a given period of time. NiCD batteries because of the memory effect an inability to deal well with high current applications, made them unsuitable for a mass market electric car.
- cyberax 4y ago
  > low lifetime cycle count Top of the line NiMh chemistries had lifetime cycle count better than many Li-Ion batteries, like 10% degradation after 2000 cycles. They also don't have the memory effect, but can exhibit a somewhat similar but fully reversible effect. Really, the energy density was the main killer.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  NiMH works fine in cars - Toyota has been using NiMH in many many generations of their hybrid cars like the Prius and they have held up very well. The problem is just the energy density once you need to maximize range.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    I stand corrected, thank you!
    - kalleboo 3y ago
      It's really counter-intuitive to those of us who grew up with the NiMH->Li-ion transition in consumer electronics! When I learned that Toyota used NiMH in the Prius it was kind of a "mind blown" moment.
      - 3y ago

cyberax 4y ago

Sure. Oil companies tried to delay EVs, but I just don't think it really mattered. Practical EVs happened just about as soon as they became feasible, once the enabling technologies fully matured. Even the best NiMh batteries were inferior to the worst LiIon batteries from the early 2000-s. RAV4 EV was pretty much the best example of what is possible with NiMh, and it was pretty weak: 70hp motor, top speed of 80mph, range of 90 miles.

omgwtfbyobbq 4y ago
I think it did and still does matter. Slowing battery development also slowed other aspects of EV tech. To be fair, most auto manufacturers weren't and to some degree still aren't fully on board with even their own EVs. If it wasn't for companies like BYD, Tesla, etc, pushing EVs forward, I think we'd still be stuck with compliance cars. NiMH wasn't great though. I think the best was the NiMH EV1 at 142 miles of range.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Was battery technology actually slowed? When Tesla began mass-producing EVs, they were using off-the-shelf vendor batteries. It seems like if anything the battery tech was ahead of the EV wave, having been driven by thin and light ultraportable computers.
  - hoofhearted 4y ago
    The two guys who created Tesla were the same guys who created the e-reader, which would become the kindle. They took their knowledge from the kindle batteries and put it into a car. P.S. Tesla has always used off the shelf vendor batteries. Panasonic has their separate section within the Tesla factories where they are mass producing regular looking batteries that are then assembled in series.
- cyberax 4y ago
  > I think it did and still does matter. Slowing battery development also slowed other aspects of EV tech. I just don't see it. The first LiIon EVs had very little technology that was not off-the shelf. Roadster was quite literally a bunch of laptop batteries bolted onto a car frame. It's not that hard to make an expensive EV.
  - omgwtfbyobbq 3y ago
    Ignoring improvements in battery tech, look at what BYD/Tesla are doing now with packaging/production/aero/etc. https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-tesla-model-y-work-of-art-report/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-tesla-model-y-work-of-a... Most auto production is optimized for ICEs. Even 20+ years ago, Toyota's engineers knew there was plenty to do in the EV space. https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1995235_1995384_1995781,00.html https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28... The problem was/is that optimizing EVs will undercut ICE sales, so Toyota just ignored what their engineers said for decades to maintain the status quo and, like most legacy auto manufacturers, fell behind newcomers in the EV space.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The batteries are still pretty expensive. The EV1 probably cost like $150,000+ in 2023 dollars just to build, so they've made lots of progress, but electric vehicles don't beat comparable conventional vehicles across the board, they have better performance and lower operating costs, and that's most of it.
kccqzy 4y ago
The 2011 Nissan Leaf wasn't much better than that RAV4 EV: a quick search showed that the 2011 Nissan Leaf had a 107-hp motor, 92 mph top speed, and a 92-mile range.

Aloha 4y ago

> NiMH was far superior to lead acid, superior to nicad, and much cheaper than lithium ion. Except on a couple accounts - Memory and Lifetime. NiMH batteries have almost as bad as a memory effect as NiCD, and have a low lifetime cycle count compared to lead acid. I dont think you could put NiMH batteries in a production car, at any point, without designing the battery pack to be cheaply and easily replaced. NiMH batteries are far more of a consumable than even Lithium batteries are. There are also real limits on how much current an NiMH battery can deliver in a given period of time. NiCD batteries because of the memory effect an inability to deal well with high current applications, made them unsuitable for a mass market electric car.

cyberax 4y ago
> low lifetime cycle count Top of the line NiMh chemistries had lifetime cycle count better than many Li-Ion batteries, like 10% degradation after 2000 cycles. They also don't have the memory effect, but can exhibit a somewhat similar but fully reversible effect. Really, the energy density was the main killer.
kalleboo 4y ago
NiMH works fine in cars - Toyota has been using NiMH in many many generations of their hybrid cars like the Prius and they have held up very well. The problem is just the energy density once you need to maximize range.
- Aloha 4y ago
  I stand corrected, thank you!
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    It's really counter-intuitive to those of us who grew up with the NiMH->Li-ion transition in consumer electronics! When I learned that Toyota used NiMH in the Prius it was kind of a "mind blown" moment.
    - 3y ago