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"ne... pas" in French is nothing more nor less than the correct way of formulating certain kinds of statements containing a negative. If you left out either of

"ne... pas" in French is nothing more nor less than the correct way of formulating certain kinds of statements containing a negative. If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator. It's absurd that English speakers are so tolerant of incorrect usage. It's partly the pedagogic principle that "All shall have prizes" at the school sports day; but it's significant that if you try to correct incorrect usage, you get referred to literary figures such as poets and playwrights that used some term incorrectly, as if people like (e.g.) Pepys are authorities.

PoignardAzur 4y ago
"Laugh or assume you're a robot" isn't quite right, though; skipping the "ne" is common in informal contexts.
JackFr 4y ago
There was a fascinating article in the Economist many years ago about the worldwide predominance of English. (This was pre ubiquitous internet.) The reasons given were 1) British colonialism 2) Post WWII American hegemony 3) No one cares if you speak it poorly.
- monetus 4y ago
  Ever read pidgin? Mutually intelligible, really neat. https://www.bbc.com/pidgin https://www.bbc.com/pidgin
- ghaff 4y ago
  >3) No one cares if you speak it poorly And this is maybe just a slightly more charitable rephrasing of #3 but very open to loan words and alternative ways of phrasing things.
crazygringo 4y ago
> It's absurd that English speakers are so tolerant of incorrect usage. Or, one can just as easily say it's absurd that certain pedants are so intolerant of evolving usage. Language does not proceed by logical deduction. It is shared convention, no more and no less. If a majority of people think a new usage is right, then that's just what the usage is. When you say "incorrect usage", incorrect according to whom? You? A minority? Why should anyone else take that seriously when they're already communicating just fine?
arrowsmith 4y ago
> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator. Isn't it common to drop the "ne" in colloquial speech?
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  “Common” is an understatement. It’s practically universal. You will sound weird if you systematically include “ne”, like you learned to speak by reading books and have never communicated with a real person.
vidarh 4y ago
Or they'll assume you're a native speaker familiar with a given dialect or specific idioms. Dropping "ne" is common in spoken French many places to the point that to many speakers you'll sound stilted and/or old if you included it - the first time I was told (as a teenager) I sounded "old" for using ne..pas was around 30 years ago. The son in the family I stayed with on on a school trip back then found it hilarious how often I used "ne ... pas" instead of just "pas", e.g. "c'est pas grave" [1] rather than "ce n'est pas grave". [1] Here's a song titled "c'est pas grave" by French group Columbine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yyjPxvNLGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yyjPxvNLGk
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  The reverse is possible too: there are some verbs (at least savoir and pouvoir, not sure if there are others) that can be negated just with ne, without pas, although it sounds stilted and old-fashioned. You are unlikely to encounter this in the real world but it does show up in books. For example Dumbledore in the French translation of Harry Potter says “je ne puis” and “je ne sais” a fair amount.
  - arrowsmith 3y ago
    I'm not a native speaker, but I've read that "je ne [verb]" was the standard way to negate in Old French, cognate with e.g. "yo no [verb]" in Spanish. The "pas" was originally only added for emphasis, but over time it became obligatory and the "ne" became less important. It's almost as if, contrary to what the person three comments up says, languages evolve over time...
School-Cotton 4y ago
> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please learn French before spouting off so confidently about it.

PoignardAzur 4y ago

"Laugh or assume you're a robot" isn't quite right, though; skipping the "ne" is common in informal contexts.

JackFr 4y ago

There was a fascinating article in the Economist many years ago about the worldwide predominance of English. (This was pre ubiquitous internet.) The reasons given were 1) British colonialism 2) Post WWII American hegemony 3) No one cares if you speak it poorly.

monetus 4y ago
Ever read pidgin? Mutually intelligible, really neat. https://www.bbc.com/pidgin https://www.bbc.com/pidgin
ghaff 4y ago
>3) No one cares if you speak it poorly And this is maybe just a slightly more charitable rephrasing of #3 but very open to loan words and alternative ways of phrasing things.

crazygringo 4y ago

> It's absurd that English speakers are so tolerant of incorrect usage. Or, one can just as easily say it's absurd that certain pedants are so intolerant of evolving usage. Language does not proceed by logical deduction. It is shared convention, no more and no less. If a majority of people think a new usage is right, then that's just what the usage is. When you say "incorrect usage", incorrect according to whom? You? A minority? Why should anyone else take that seriously when they're already communicating just fine?

arrowsmith 4y ago

> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator. Isn't it common to drop the "ne" in colloquial speech?

School-Cotton 4y ago
“Common” is an understatement. It’s practically universal. You will sound weird if you systematically include “ne”, like you learned to speak by reading books and have never communicated with a real person.

vidarh 4y ago

Or they'll assume you're a native speaker familiar with a given dialect or specific idioms. Dropping "ne" is common in spoken French many places to the point that to many speakers you'll sound stilted and/or old if you included it - the first time I was told (as a teenager) I sounded "old" for using ne..pas was around 30 years ago. The son in the family I stayed with on on a school trip back then found it hilarious how often I used "ne ... pas" instead of just "pas", e.g. "c'est pas grave" [1] rather than "ce n'est pas grave". [1] Here's a song titled "c'est pas grave" by French group Columbine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yyjPxvNLGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yyjPxvNLGk

School-Cotton 4y ago
The reverse is possible too: there are some verbs (at least savoir and pouvoir, not sure if there are others) that can be negated just with ne, without pas, although it sounds stilted and old-fashioned. You are unlikely to encounter this in the real world but it does show up in books. For example Dumbledore in the French translation of Harry Potter says “je ne puis” and “je ne sais” a fair amount.
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  I'm not a native speaker, but I've read that "je ne [verb]" was the standard way to negate in Old French, cognate with e.g. "yo no [verb]" in Spanish. The "pas" was originally only added for emphasis, but over time it became obligatory and the "ne" became less important. It's almost as if, contrary to what the person three comments up says, languages evolve over time...

School-Cotton 4y ago

> If you left out either of "ne" or "pas" in such a construction, people would either laugh, or assume you were some kind of primitive language generator. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Please learn French before spouting off so confidently about it.