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Where? I haven't seen anyone upgrading all the powerlines and power stations around my home... I haven't even seen any plans to do so. The local power distribut

Where? I haven't seen anyone upgrading all the powerlines and power stations around my home... I haven't even seen any plans to do so. The local power distribution monopoly says it can't be done unless they raise prices 5x - which nobody wants to pay. Also, power generation - if everyone wants to charge at night, we need to completely change the concept and stop the move to solar energy in favor of nuclear.

fourseventy 3y ago
So because you don't see anyone upgrading the powerlines by your house that means that there is no work taking place on the power grid?
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  Yes, exactly. Where I live it's a political thing so I'd know. The situation now is that they say they're not going to do it because people oppose the higher prices. They even stopped allowing people to connect their solar arrays without large batteries because the grid is that overloaded. (of course they're doing work on it - but definitely not the sort of work required to allow everyone to charge their 1-3 cars per household).
- Arcanum-XIII 3y ago
  There’s none in the Brussel area of Belgium. In fact, we’re stuck for the foreseeable future to a grid at 3x220 (nearly the only one in the world) because it’s too costly to update the network, cabin and so on. We’re speaking about industrial level of power delivery to charge all those EV. Things need to change at a huge scale and the operator are not ready for that. Source ? I discussed that with my operator for high power need - their answer was to move elsewhere.
  - SECProto 3y ago
    I was curious about the "grid at 3x220" mention so I did some research. Couldn't find what you meant by this, but did find a page from the electric utility in Brussels explicitly saying there are no problems or work required by the EV conversion plans by 2030. https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/an-electricity-grid-ready-for-the-electric-car https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/...
    - martijnvds 3y ago
      Parts of Belgium have 3 phase power with 220V between phases, and no neutral. And protective earth of course. The rest of Europe has 230V, 3 phases + neutral, with 400V between phases.
mbgerring 3y ago
In many, many places all over the world every day, just maybe not in your backyard just yet. Your local power distribution company is lying, and if you want to solve a fun problem you could get into the weeds and figure out how to work around them.
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  Not really my problem - I have a car for long distance trips only and that's going to be diesel at least for another decade or two.
  - jackmott 3y ago
    [dead]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - huijzer 3y ago
    Global warming is your problem just like it is everyone’s problem
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      Diesel doesn't have to be fossil. Unfortunately, I can't make them switch to algae. But I'd be OK with paying more for it, if it was available. My regular long distance trips are impossible with current electric cars, so that's really not an option. Yes, I considered an online call.
      - thomasmg 3y ago
        Non-fossil diesel is going to be very expensive... The alternative is battery swap stations. Nio seems to be successful with that.
        throwaway50606 3y ago
ajpgrealish 3y ago
Upgrading the power lines isn't the full answer, certainly some upgrades will be required, but the wires are designed for peak demand. EVs have flexibility, and can mostly be charged in non-peak times, drastically reducing the powerline and power station upgrades required. This flexibility has to be managed, and there are many companies working on this. For example: https://ev.energy/ https://ev.energy/
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  The energy requirements seem high enough that it'd create a new, even higher peak during the night...
  - goodcanadian 3y ago
    I did a back of the envelope calculation some time back for both Canada and the UK (I imagine the US numbers are proportionally similar to Canada). If we replace all private passenger cars with EVs, using average mileage, it increases annual electricity demand by about 20%. The difference between daytime peak and nighttime off peak is more than 20%. In a lot of cases, there will be no need at all for new power plants or distribution networks. The reality, of course, is more complicated as we are electrifying much more than passenger cars. You better believe, however, that the distribution networks are planning around this. I was in a meeting with someone from the National Grid (UK central grid authority) who is responsible for planning for the transition. Basically, all new housing developments are being provisioned assuming heat pumps and EV chargers. Existing areas are being monitored and upgraded as they near the grid limits. Plans go out years in advance. It is a lot of work, but I am confident that it is being well managed. I cannot say that everywhere is as well managed, but I think it is safe to assume that many of these people and organisations do, in fact, know what they are doing. It sounded like the biggest problem in the UK was NIMBYs fighting against the new distribution networks needed to land the power from the offshore wind farms which are rapidly replacing the old fossil fuel generators.
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      NIMBY is indeed the issue here as well. People don't want wind and solar arrays and they don't want to pay even 20% more for electric distribution or electricity itself. The power distribution company is competent, I have full confidence in that. Yes, they have plans and know what they're doing and what's coming - but they need money to do it, and they're not going to get it anytime soon. At least this country is very pro-nuclear.
yazaddaruvala 3y ago
Upgrading is only one way to achieve this. The most likely solution is house battery backups attached to a virtual grid. https://youtu.be/_UJiglrYgJY https://youtu.be/_UJiglrYgJY
notatoad 3y ago
the power lines around my house got upgraded last summer. if we think that's somehow relevant here.
nostrademons 3y ago
It's just not happening near your home (probably intentionally). Go down to the Mojave desert between Barstow and Vegas and there are massive solar farms built over the last decade. Same with the California mountain passes and wind energy - there are large wind farms on the Altamont, Pacheco, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio passes. Many of these are also getting large upgrades with more energy-efficient turbines, eg. the Pacheco Pass windfarm (18 MW, 162 turbines, built in the early 1980s) is getting upgraded in 2023 to 147.5 MW and 200 MWh of battery storage with fewer turbines. Also I think that workplace charging is the future of EVs. With the peak of the duck curve at mid-day, the obvious way to match that up to battery demand is to provide incentives for ubiquitous EV chargers in office parking lots, as well as charging the consumer for electricity consumed by their car.
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  Well, that's US. I am in much more densely populated Central Europe - several orders of magnitude compared to California. For most people here, workplace is 15-30 minutes walk/public transit away, that's not going to solve anything about car charging. Wind is now opposed by people here because it ruins the landscape. Funny but it's what it is. And there's not enough physical space for solar arrays of this size.
  - nostrademons 3y ago
    If people are walking or taking public transit anyway, you don't have a vehicle problem in the first place.
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      Oh, we most certainly do. Look at how much energy in the form of gas/diesel is used in Europe - it's definitely not insignificant. The average household has almost 2 cars, many have 3 - and they use them, just not to get to work. IMHO the usage patterns and the population density make this a much harder problem here than in the US.
  - ductsurprise 3y ago

fourseventy 3y ago

So because you don't see anyone upgrading the powerlines by your house that means that there is no work taking place on the power grid?

throwaway50606 3y ago
Yes, exactly. Where I live it's a political thing so I'd know. The situation now is that they say they're not going to do it because people oppose the higher prices. They even stopped allowing people to connect their solar arrays without large batteries because the grid is that overloaded. (of course they're doing work on it - but definitely not the sort of work required to allow everyone to charge their 1-3 cars per household).
Arcanum-XIII 3y ago
There’s none in the Brussel area of Belgium. In fact, we’re stuck for the foreseeable future to a grid at 3x220 (nearly the only one in the world) because it’s too costly to update the network, cabin and so on. We’re speaking about industrial level of power delivery to charge all those EV. Things need to change at a huge scale and the operator are not ready for that. Source ? I discussed that with my operator for high power need - their answer was to move elsewhere.
- SECProto 3y ago
  I was curious about the "grid at 3x220" mention so I did some research. Couldn't find what you meant by this, but did find a page from the electric utility in Brussels explicitly saying there are no problems or work required by the EV conversion plans by 2030. https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/an-electricity-grid-ready-for-the-electric-car https://www.sibelga.be/en/about-sibelga/projects-challenges/...
  - martijnvds 3y ago
    Parts of Belgium have 3 phase power with 220V between phases, and no neutral. And protective earth of course. The rest of Europe has 230V, 3 phases + neutral, with 400V between phases.

mbgerring 3y ago

In many, many places all over the world every day, just maybe not in your backyard just yet. Your local power distribution company is lying, and if you want to solve a fun problem you could get into the weeds and figure out how to work around them.

throwaway50606 3y ago
Not really my problem - I have a car for long distance trips only and that's going to be diesel at least for another decade or two.
- jackmott 3y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- huijzer 3y ago
  Global warming is your problem just like it is everyone’s problem
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    Diesel doesn't have to be fossil. Unfortunately, I can't make them switch to algae. But I'd be OK with paying more for it, if it was available. My regular long distance trips are impossible with current electric cars, so that's really not an option. Yes, I considered an online call.
    - thomasmg 3y ago
      Non-fossil diesel is going to be very expensive... The alternative is battery swap stations. Nio seems to be successful with that.
      - throwaway50606 3y ago

ajpgrealish 3y ago

Upgrading the power lines isn't the full answer, certainly some upgrades will be required, but the wires are designed for peak demand. EVs have flexibility, and can mostly be charged in non-peak times, drastically reducing the powerline and power station upgrades required. This flexibility has to be managed, and there are many companies working on this. For example: https://ev.energy/ https://ev.energy/

throwaway50606 3y ago
The energy requirements seem high enough that it'd create a new, even higher peak during the night...
- goodcanadian 3y ago
  I did a back of the envelope calculation some time back for both Canada and the UK (I imagine the US numbers are proportionally similar to Canada). If we replace all private passenger cars with EVs, using average mileage, it increases annual electricity demand by about 20%. The difference between daytime peak and nighttime off peak is more than 20%. In a lot of cases, there will be no need at all for new power plants or distribution networks. The reality, of course, is more complicated as we are electrifying much more than passenger cars. You better believe, however, that the distribution networks are planning around this. I was in a meeting with someone from the National Grid (UK central grid authority) who is responsible for planning for the transition. Basically, all new housing developments are being provisioned assuming heat pumps and EV chargers. Existing areas are being monitored and upgraded as they near the grid limits. Plans go out years in advance. It is a lot of work, but I am confident that it is being well managed. I cannot say that everywhere is as well managed, but I think it is safe to assume that many of these people and organisations do, in fact, know what they are doing. It sounded like the biggest problem in the UK was NIMBYs fighting against the new distribution networks needed to land the power from the offshore wind farms which are rapidly replacing the old fossil fuel generators.
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    NIMBY is indeed the issue here as well. People don't want wind and solar arrays and they don't want to pay even 20% more for electric distribution or electricity itself. The power distribution company is competent, I have full confidence in that. Yes, they have plans and know what they're doing and what's coming - but they need money to do it, and they're not going to get it anytime soon. At least this country is very pro-nuclear.

yazaddaruvala 3y ago

Upgrading is only one way to achieve this. The most likely solution is house battery backups attached to a virtual grid. https://youtu.be/_UJiglrYgJY https://youtu.be/_UJiglrYgJY

notatoad 3y ago

the power lines around my house got upgraded last summer. if we think that's somehow relevant here.

nostrademons 3y ago

It's just not happening near your home (probably intentionally). Go down to the Mojave desert between Barstow and Vegas and there are massive solar farms built over the last decade. Same with the California mountain passes and wind energy - there are large wind farms on the Altamont, Pacheco, Tehachapi, and San Gorgonio passes. Many of these are also getting large upgrades with more energy-efficient turbines, eg. the Pacheco Pass windfarm (18 MW, 162 turbines, built in the early 1980s) is getting upgraded in 2023 to 147.5 MW and 200 MWh of battery storage with fewer turbines. Also I think that workplace charging is the future of EVs. With the peak of the duck curve at mid-day, the obvious way to match that up to battery demand is to provide incentives for ubiquitous EV chargers in office parking lots, as well as charging the consumer for electricity consumed by their car.

throwaway50606 3y ago
Well, that's US. I am in much more densely populated Central Europe - several orders of magnitude compared to California. For most people here, workplace is 15-30 minutes walk/public transit away, that's not going to solve anything about car charging. Wind is now opposed by people here because it ruins the landscape. Funny but it's what it is. And there's not enough physical space for solar arrays of this size.
- nostrademons 3y ago
  If people are walking or taking public transit anyway, you don't have a vehicle problem in the first place.
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    Oh, we most certainly do. Look at how much energy in the form of gas/diesel is used in Europe - it's definitely not insignificant. The average household has almost 2 cars, many have 3 - and they use them, just not to get to work. IMHO the usage patterns and the population density make this a much harder problem here than in the US.
- ductsurprise 3y ago