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They propose a total ban that does not require fraudulent intent to criminalize possession, an unlimited fine, and ignore that most of the use is just bypassing

by costco 3y ago

They propose a total ban that does not require fraudulent intent to criminalize possession, an unlimited fine, and ignore that most of the use is just bypassing rentseeking A2P SMS charges? Along with the fact that it’s unclear who is even asking for it. UK similarly banned GSM gateways in the early 2000s but recent court rulings said the way it was banned was illegal and is in the appeals process.

orf 3y ago
Most of the use case is spamming people. There are very few other uses for something like this[1]. A2P is also a US specific thing? 1. https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004866582019.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.12.4bb367e27GVbQ6&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.326746.0&scm_id=1007.40000.326746.0&scm-url=1007.40000.326746.0&pvid=5bc43ae6-6a1d-44f7-86cd-cbc702558ad2&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.326746.0,pvid:5bc43ae6-6a1d-44f7-86cd-cbc702558ad2,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238114%23731&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21GBP%214450.69%214094.63%21%21%21%21%21%40211b5e2116833856232835735e04f5%2112000030807171677%21rec%21GB%21 https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004866582019.html?spm=a2g0...
- costco 3y ago
  Sites like smspva.com would have dozens of those devices, should they be illegal? I can think of uses of these devices, yes most of them are “grey market” but they don’t involve stealing from people. By “A2P fees” I’m referring to the fact that in most countries it costs more to send an SMS with Twilio than a 5000 message or unlimited message retail plan. I won’t deny that some SIM farms are used for scams but if you look at the countries that have banned them the reasoning is not because of fraud it’s because they have a monopoly phone provider and people effectively use these devices to convert international calls or SMS like verification code messages to domestic so that they don’t have to pay higher termination fees which costs the carrier some profits. They can also make tracing calls harder which is why India bans them. But given that there is VOIP I don’t see why banning this would prevent any fraud.
  - orf 3y ago
    > Sites like smspva.com would have dozens of those devices, should they be illegal? Your argument is that since this clearly sketchy service ran from Hong Kong that is dedicated to giving people the ability to automate signups on sites/apps and “earn money using our service” utilizes dozens of these devices, these devices are OK?
    - costco 3y ago
      Plenty of civic minded people find services like these useful for registering Signal accounts not tied to their own number. Or for scraping sites like LinkedIn. There are companies like this run from other countries if you don’t trust Hong Kong. I don’t think arguing that some unknowable fraction of fraud traffic flows through these devices is persuasive when the legislative conversation in the countries that banned these devices is almost entirely about carriers losing some termination fees and national security fears.
      - orf 3y ago
        I mean it literally advertises itself as a service that enables people to make money by bypassing restrictions that require phone numbers. You might not make money using it and instead just use it to sign up for a single signal account, but you’re not really the target audience in that case.
        costco 3y ago
        The people making money from it wouldn’t exist without people buying the verification codes. If you Google smspva or services like it and read forum posts about it the majority of discussion is about people using it to automate account registration.
        orf 3y ago
        Yes, hello?? They often use those registered accounts for malicious purposes which generates income for them?
- toast0 3y ago
  Something like that provides for programatic sms and maybe voice calling. Most likely, using consumer market sims, so tarriff arbitrage is likely a large component. You might use something like this to do bulk SMS, which could be spam or could be phone number confirmations (like it or not, it's a common activity). If voice works, it could be a backup outbound connection for an office PBX (although, unless you had fancy SIMs, you are going to get the sim's phone number as caller id which is undesirable). Many countries have been making a2p messaging harder and harder; using a sim farm is a tempting way to opt-out of official restrictions, although it seems like a lot more operational work.

by costco 3y ago

orf 3y ago

Most of the use case is spamming people. There are very few other uses for something like this[1]. A2P is also a US specific thing? 1. https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004866582019.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.12.4bb367e27GVbQ6&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.326746.0&scm_id=1007.40000.326746.0&scm-url=1007.40000.326746.0&pvid=5bc43ae6-6a1d-44f7-86cd-cbc702558ad2&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.326746.0,pvid:5bc43ae6-6a1d-44f7-86cd-cbc702558ad2,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238114%23731&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21GBP%214450.69%214094.63%21%21%21%21%21%40211b5e2116833856232835735e04f5%2112000030807171677%21rec%21GB%21 https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005004866582019.html?spm=a2g0...

costco 3y ago
Sites like smspva.com would have dozens of those devices, should they be illegal? I can think of uses of these devices, yes most of them are “grey market” but they don’t involve stealing from people. By “A2P fees” I’m referring to the fact that in most countries it costs more to send an SMS with Twilio than a 5000 message or unlimited message retail plan. I won’t deny that some SIM farms are used for scams but if you look at the countries that have banned them the reasoning is not because of fraud it’s because they have a monopoly phone provider and people effectively use these devices to convert international calls or SMS like verification code messages to domestic so that they don’t have to pay higher termination fees which costs the carrier some profits. They can also make tracing calls harder which is why India bans them. But given that there is VOIP I don’t see why banning this would prevent any fraud.
- orf 3y ago
  > Sites like smspva.com would have dozens of those devices, should they be illegal? Your argument is that since this clearly sketchy service ran from Hong Kong that is dedicated to giving people the ability to automate signups on sites/apps and “earn money using our service” utilizes dozens of these devices, these devices are OK?
  - costco 3y ago
    Plenty of civic minded people find services like these useful for registering Signal accounts not tied to their own number. Or for scraping sites like LinkedIn. There are companies like this run from other countries if you don’t trust Hong Kong. I don’t think arguing that some unknowable fraction of fraud traffic flows through these devices is persuasive when the legislative conversation in the countries that banned these devices is almost entirely about carriers losing some termination fees and national security fears.
    - orf 3y ago
      I mean it literally advertises itself as a service that enables people to make money by bypassing restrictions that require phone numbers. You might not make money using it and instead just use it to sign up for a single signal account, but you’re not really the target audience in that case.
      - costco 3y ago
        The people making money from it wouldn’t exist without people buying the verification codes. If you Google smspva or services like it and read forum posts about it the majority of discussion is about people using it to automate account registration.
        orf 3y ago
        Yes, hello?? They often use those registered accounts for malicious purposes which generates income for them?
toast0 3y ago
Something like that provides for programatic sms and maybe voice calling. Most likely, using consumer market sims, so tarriff arbitrage is likely a large component. You might use something like this to do bulk SMS, which could be spam or could be phone number confirmations (like it or not, it's a common activity). If voice works, it could be a backup outbound connection for an office PBX (although, unless you had fancy SIMs, you are going to get the sim's phone number as caller id which is undesirable). Many countries have been making a2p messaging harder and harder; using a sim farm is a tempting way to opt-out of official restrictions, although it seems like a lot more operational work.