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Here's a practical example of a group purchasing this kind of data to do harm. > Catholic group spent millions on app data that tracked gay priests. A group of

Here's a practical example of a group purchasing this kind of data to do harm. > Catholic group spent millions on app data that tracked gay priests. A group of philanthropists poured money into a Denver nonprofit that obtained dating and hookup app data and shared it with bishops around the country, a Post investigation has found https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics-gay-priests-grindr-data-bishops/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics...

joemazerino 3y ago
I would argue this has more to do with the Oaths the priests took. It would be similar to an MDM -- enforcing company (in this case, Church) compliance.
- npteljes 3y ago
  Why not let God do the judgment?
- iudqnolq 3y ago
  If an employer purchased data from a scummy tracking company about the use of apps on a personal device outside work hours I'd be outraged too. Even if the company discovered actual wrongdoing. The ends don't justify the means. a private organization doesn't get to spy on its members. They can ask you to install MDM, they can't peek in your bedroom window. We live in a society.
  - WillPostForFood 3y ago
    It is scummy behavior to buy tracking data. But are there "outside work hours" for priests? Seems like it is an all-in kind of thing.
  - COGlory 3y ago
    Being a priest is a vocation, not a job. There are no working hours. Their entire life must be a reflection of their beliefs.
    - bigger_inside 3y ago
      interestng that pretty much every US company seems to think that of their bots, ehm, I mean, employees. I don't accept it for any company, and the church is also not entitled to convert all their people into good little bots who are 100% company man facade, 100% of the time
    - themitigating 3y ago
      Is this a legal difference?
  - TheFreim 3y ago
    There is no such thing as "outside work hours" for a priest. They are to serve as a leader for their congregation, actively engaging in behavior which is contrary to that mission should absolutely be exposed.
    - kibwen 3y ago
      This is absolute nonsense. Just because some people choose not to understand the concept of work/life balance doesn't mean that the institution of the church is magically beyond reproach. Employers shouldn't get to spy on their employees, full stop. Please stop making excuses for corporate overreach.
      - joemazerino 3y ago
        It does because the Priests are consenting. It isn't a legal relationship - it is a spiritual one.
      - TheFreim 3y ago
        Being a priest isn't a "job". You don't commit to being a mere "employee" when you become a priest, just as a parent doesn't get to just decide to not care for their child because they don't like the "job" anymore. When you become a priest you vow to uphold certain teachings, standards, and practices.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        janosett 3y ago
        This is about your view of morals as they relate to religion though, right? Legally speaking priests are employees and the church is the employer. I think our government system should treat them as such. Whether it’s right or wrong from the perspective of the church or followers of the religion should be separate from our rules about privacy.
        3y ago
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    I agree with you but there is some kind of irony about priests who ostensibly believe an omniscient being watches their every move expecting privacy from digital surveillance. We are in the process of building a god of sorts (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) and I’m not sure it’s a good thing.
TheFreim 3y ago
[flagged]
- kibwen 3y ago
  Whether or not a priest is gay has no bearing on their ability to be a responsible shepherd for their community. It's the 21st century, leave that shit in the past.
  - TheFreim 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      I'm not Catholic, but from what I understand, Catholic priests are forbidden marriage, extramarital sex, and sodomy on top of that. Being on a dating or hookup app is evidence of temptation, but in itself no more than that. Hmm. I do wonder if any of the priests were on these apps to try to identify any other priests who were on there, not because they themselves were gay.
      - TheFreim 3y ago
        > Being on a dating or hookup app is evidence of temptation, but in itself no more than that. This could be true, merely having an application doesn't mean someone is continuing on to do other things. The problem is that a priest isn't understood in a Catholic context merely be a private person. Publicly going on one of these "dating" applications and identifying oneself in such a manner lends itself towards the sin of scandal among other issues. > I do wonder if any of the priests were on these apps to try to identify any other priests who were on there, not because they themselves were gay. This would need need to be considered, but it seems unlikely. First, this idea is highly unlikely since without data analysis (which was done by the group discussed iirc) you're essentially exposing yourself to material you find objectionable go a goal that has minimal practical likelihood of being successful. On top of that, the kind of priest who would want to expose bad behavior isn't the kind of person who would ever considering using these applications. Also, if my memory serves me from when I first heard about this, data/information was simply referred to the relevant bishop who in turn would choose if/how to proceed.
TobyTheDog123 3y ago
Wow, lot of homophobes and/or trolls on Hacker News these days (not OP, other comments in this thread). Specifics of the example aside, are people really defending organizations buying private user data for use in employment decisions?
- biofunsf 3y ago
  I didn’t interpret the grand parent comment as defending this practice at all.

joemazerino 3y ago

I would argue this has more to do with the Oaths the priests took. It would be similar to an MDM -- enforcing company (in this case, Church) compliance.

npteljes 3y ago
Why not let God do the judgment?
iudqnolq 3y ago
If an employer purchased data from a scummy tracking company about the use of apps on a personal device outside work hours I'd be outraged too. Even if the company discovered actual wrongdoing. The ends don't justify the means. a private organization doesn't get to spy on its members. They can ask you to install MDM, they can't peek in your bedroom window. We live in a society.
- WillPostForFood 3y ago
  It is scummy behavior to buy tracking data. But are there "outside work hours" for priests? Seems like it is an all-in kind of thing.
- COGlory 3y ago
  Being a priest is a vocation, not a job. There are no working hours. Their entire life must be a reflection of their beliefs.
  - bigger_inside 3y ago
    interestng that pretty much every US company seems to think that of their bots, ehm, I mean, employees. I don't accept it for any company, and the church is also not entitled to convert all their people into good little bots who are 100% company man facade, 100% of the time
  - themitigating 3y ago
    Is this a legal difference?
- TheFreim 3y ago
  There is no such thing as "outside work hours" for a priest. They are to serve as a leader for their congregation, actively engaging in behavior which is contrary to that mission should absolutely be exposed.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    This is absolute nonsense. Just because some people choose not to understand the concept of work/life balance doesn't mean that the institution of the church is magically beyond reproach. Employers shouldn't get to spy on their employees, full stop. Please stop making excuses for corporate overreach.
    - joemazerino 3y ago
      It does because the Priests are consenting. It isn't a legal relationship - it is a spiritual one.
    - TheFreim 3y ago
      Being a priest isn't a "job". You don't commit to being a mere "employee" when you become a priest, just as a parent doesn't get to just decide to not care for their child because they don't like the "job" anymore. When you become a priest you vow to uphold certain teachings, standards, and practices.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - janosett 3y ago
        This is about your view of morals as they relate to religion though, right? Legally speaking priests are employees and the church is the employer. I think our government system should treat them as such. Whether it’s right or wrong from the perspective of the church or followers of the religion should be separate from our rules about privacy.
        3y ago
- janalsncm 3y ago
  I agree with you but there is some kind of irony about priests who ostensibly believe an omniscient being watches their every move expecting privacy from digital surveillance. We are in the process of building a god of sorts (omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent) and I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

TheFreim 3y ago

[flagged]

kibwen 3y ago
Whether or not a priest is gay has no bearing on their ability to be a responsible shepherd for their community. It's the 21st century, leave that shit in the past.
- TheFreim 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    I'm not Catholic, but from what I understand, Catholic priests are forbidden marriage, extramarital sex, and sodomy on top of that. Being on a dating or hookup app is evidence of temptation, but in itself no more than that. Hmm. I do wonder if any of the priests were on these apps to try to identify any other priests who were on there, not because they themselves were gay.
    - TheFreim 3y ago
      > Being on a dating or hookup app is evidence of temptation, but in itself no more than that. This could be true, merely having an application doesn't mean someone is continuing on to do other things. The problem is that a priest isn't understood in a Catholic context merely be a private person. Publicly going on one of these "dating" applications and identifying oneself in such a manner lends itself towards the sin of scandal among other issues. > I do wonder if any of the priests were on these apps to try to identify any other priests who were on there, not because they themselves were gay. This would need need to be considered, but it seems unlikely. First, this idea is highly unlikely since without data analysis (which was done by the group discussed iirc) you're essentially exposing yourself to material you find objectionable go a goal that has minimal practical likelihood of being successful. On top of that, the kind of priest who would want to expose bad behavior isn't the kind of person who would ever considering using these applications. Also, if my memory serves me from when I first heard about this, data/information was simply referred to the relevant bishop who in turn would choose if/how to proceed.

TobyTheDog123 3y ago

Wow, lot of homophobes and/or trolls on Hacker News these days (not OP, other comments in this thread). Specifics of the example aside, are people really defending organizations buying private user data for use in employment decisions?

biofunsf 3y ago
I didn’t interpret the grand parent comment as defending this practice at all.