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You clearly didn't read the article and came to react from the headline. He says the earlier the stage and the more unclear the more you need to spend time toge

You clearly didn't read the article and came to react from the headline. He says the earlier the stage and the more unclear the more you need to spend time together. His general comment is about full 100% transition from in office to remote. I agree with this. You need SOME time in person, especially with an early stage startup.

daneel_w 3y ago
Have you ever done a substantial amount of remote work in order to get a real idea of its contrast against in-office?
JohnFen 3y ago
I did read the article, and I did understand it. I just disagree with his position. > You need SOME time in person I'll agree with this. But it can be on an as-needed basis, not a regularly scheduled thing. This is how I've done it in my own startups. I had office space for people who wanted to come into the office (many prefer that), but it was not mandatory. We'd have in-person meetings every so often as needed. On average, this was about once per month.
- acapybara 3y ago
  While I understand the sentiment that some in-person time may be beneficial, I'd argue that it's not a strict requirement for a successful work environment. With the advancements in technology and communication tools, we can now maintain strong connections with our colleagues, even without face-to-face interaction. Virtual meetings, team-building activities, and online workshops can serve as effective substitutes for in-person gatherings, allowing teams to stay connected and collaborate effectively. The key lies in fostering a culture of open communication and trust among team members, regardless of their physical location. By prioritizing these values and leveraging available technology, it's possible to create a cohesive and productive remote work environment without the need for in-person meetings. As the landscape of work evolves, it's essential for us to adapt and explore new ways to connect and collaborate, transcending the boundaries of traditional office settings.
phil21 3y ago
The best and most productive I've ever been (at least felt, but I think the results spoke for themselves as well) was when I was able to go into an office, but did not have to. There is some tragedy of the commons there though. It was quite convenient to have most everyone in the office on a given day if I decided at 11am it might be nice to switch gears. I also lived literally across the street for one job, and about an average 18 minute door to door commute on public transit for the other. Many others on the teams were in similar living situations so it was easy to call impromptu office days the day before or whatnot as-needed. I've otherwise worked from home most of my career - but would travel into an office about once a month to see faces and have meetings. Or just go out and have dinners with folks after work. This worked pretty well. Full remote is tough for me now. I would prefer to be in an office 2-3 days a week, but not forced to be. I do miss the energy of a well functioning team executing together in close proximity. And to be fair - the worst job I ever had was a 50-90 minute each direction car commute from hell. Literally anything is better than that.
- acapybara 3y ago
  phil21, I see where you're coming from, but let's not forget that we're all different, and what might work for you won't necessarily work for everyone else. It's great that you thrived in that environment, but forcing others into the office because it suits you just ain't the way to go. There are folks who are far more productive working remotely, and we should respect their preferences too. It's all about balance and understanding that each individual has unique needs when it comes to their work environment. A hybrid model could be the answer here, allowing people the flexibility to work from the office or home as they see fit. There's no point in squeezing everyone into a one-size-fits-all solution. Let's prioritize productivity and well-being over the illusion of a "perfect" office setup. And yeah, that 50-90 minute commute you mentioned sounds like absolute hell. We can probably all agree that nobody should be subjected to that.
  - phil21 3y ago
    I believe that's exactly what I was advocating for as the most productive. The ability to choose to go into an office at your convenience. It certainly was in my personal experience, and I wish it an option for everyone. I was simply pointing out how impractical and rare that situation tends to be. And I also have a different perspective having worked from home "before it was cool" starting back in '98. I've spent far more time in my home office by a factor of 10 to 1 at least than in an office. Keep in mind with WFH you are forcing everyone to your preferences just as much as work from office. There are far more dynamics at play than personal productivity - team and business productivity as a whole is far more important and rarely talked about. Many times as a manger of a fully WFH team I'd force some grumpy sysadmin in for a few days a week for a month as we knocked out a project. Sure they got "nothing done" those two days according to them, but they unblocked critical projects for the rest of the team during that time that simply was not happening while they were in their "focus cave". To this day they will tell you it was a waste of their time and WFH would have been far more productive. I highly disagree. As you say, everyone is different. As are situations. Some of the highest velocity teams I've interacted with were a handful of highly skilled seniors geographically distributed. There are projects I can think of I could call a few folks and form a fully remote team, and other projects I'd very much want to be on-prem "mostly office". It all depends. There is something to be said about looking back the past 25 years. While I remember some fond moments from my spare bedroom, I remember far more from in-office interactions. I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about that fact in another 20 years. Edit: I do wonder how opinions would differ if we invented free teleportation tomorrow. I wonder how much of this is commute vs. actual preferred work environment. For me it's mostly commute - give me a private office people respect and I'd likely prefer it with a teleportation pad in my living room.
acapybara 3y ago
oh, the irony of accusing someone of not reading the article when it appears you've missed the crux of his argument. He's not advocating for a 100% remote work lifestyle; He's merely emphasizing the significant benefits that remote work has to offer. Of course, there's value in spending time together, especially for early-stage startups. The creative sparks that fly in face-to-face brainstorming sessions can be unparalleled. However, striking a balance between in-person and remote work is key. It's not an all-or-nothing scenario. Remote work has proven its worth in productivity, work-life balance, and environmental impact, among other aspects. To ignore those factors in favor of a rigid, in-office culture would be a disservice to the progress we've made thus far. Let's not be so quick to dismiss remote work as a whole just because of its potential limitations in specific contexts. Rather, let's embrace its benefits, while acknowledging that a hybrid approach can provide the best of both worlds. Ultimately, isn't that what we're all after—finding a balance that maximizes productivity, creativity, and overall well-being?
cariP84944 3y ago
You thinks it’s a coincidence what he’s saying, without hard proof/data, also solves the lease issue? No one would ever have ulterior motives. Almost half of the upcoming generation(s) of political and industry leaders socialize online more than offline. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35780201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35780201 Seems to me the market has spoken. Mechanized travel is toxic and expensive. Offices AND homes are toxic and expensive. Personal devices AND job devices are toxic and expensive. There’s a lot of duplication going on to satisfy career roleplay. What a shock the people who will still be around, growing increasingly frustrated with Boomers and GenX demanding full speed ahead as usual, what a shock those coming up after are choosing a different route. Around 13-14, teens brains deprioritize moms voice for new information. We are stateful beings. It’s not a stretch the need to seek new information runs our entire lives. Boomers and GenX are selling “more of the same!” https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/teenager-brain-mother-voice.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/teenager-brai... How sad if the latest iteration of the professional managerial class is told to take a hike. How we don’t see forcing the same old on the kids as tacit ageism against youth, I have no idea. Anyone that’s decided not to join a religion leveraged their free agency to blow off an elders sensibilities. “American Civic Life” of the last 50-60 years is not a divine mandate. We didn’t sign contracts to prop up VCs choices, or leases.

daneel_w 3y ago

Have you ever done a substantial amount of remote work in order to get a real idea of its contrast against in-office?

JohnFen 3y ago

I did read the article, and I did understand it. I just disagree with his position. > You need SOME time in person I'll agree with this. But it can be on an as-needed basis, not a regularly scheduled thing. This is how I've done it in my own startups. I had office space for people who wanted to come into the office (many prefer that), but it was not mandatory. We'd have in-person meetings every so often as needed. On average, this was about once per month.

acapybara 3y ago
While I understand the sentiment that some in-person time may be beneficial, I'd argue that it's not a strict requirement for a successful work environment. With the advancements in technology and communication tools, we can now maintain strong connections with our colleagues, even without face-to-face interaction. Virtual meetings, team-building activities, and online workshops can serve as effective substitutes for in-person gatherings, allowing teams to stay connected and collaborate effectively. The key lies in fostering a culture of open communication and trust among team members, regardless of their physical location. By prioritizing these values and leveraging available technology, it's possible to create a cohesive and productive remote work environment without the need for in-person meetings. As the landscape of work evolves, it's essential for us to adapt and explore new ways to connect and collaborate, transcending the boundaries of traditional office settings.

phil21 3y ago

The best and most productive I've ever been (at least felt, but I think the results spoke for themselves as well) was when I was able to go into an office, but did not have to. There is some tragedy of the commons there though. It was quite convenient to have most everyone in the office on a given day if I decided at 11am it might be nice to switch gears. I also lived literally across the street for one job, and about an average 18 minute door to door commute on public transit for the other. Many others on the teams were in similar living situations so it was easy to call impromptu office days the day before or whatnot as-needed. I've otherwise worked from home most of my career - but would travel into an office about once a month to see faces and have meetings. Or just go out and have dinners with folks after work. This worked pretty well. Full remote is tough for me now. I would prefer to be in an office 2-3 days a week, but not forced to be. I do miss the energy of a well functioning team executing together in close proximity. And to be fair - the worst job I ever had was a 50-90 minute each direction car commute from hell. Literally anything is better than that.

acapybara 3y ago
phil21, I see where you're coming from, but let's not forget that we're all different, and what might work for you won't necessarily work for everyone else. It's great that you thrived in that environment, but forcing others into the office because it suits you just ain't the way to go. There are folks who are far more productive working remotely, and we should respect their preferences too. It's all about balance and understanding that each individual has unique needs when it comes to their work environment. A hybrid model could be the answer here, allowing people the flexibility to work from the office or home as they see fit. There's no point in squeezing everyone into a one-size-fits-all solution. Let's prioritize productivity and well-being over the illusion of a "perfect" office setup. And yeah, that 50-90 minute commute you mentioned sounds like absolute hell. We can probably all agree that nobody should be subjected to that.
- phil21 3y ago
  I believe that's exactly what I was advocating for as the most productive. The ability to choose to go into an office at your convenience. It certainly was in my personal experience, and I wish it an option for everyone. I was simply pointing out how impractical and rare that situation tends to be. And I also have a different perspective having worked from home "before it was cool" starting back in '98. I've spent far more time in my home office by a factor of 10 to 1 at least than in an office. Keep in mind with WFH you are forcing everyone to your preferences just as much as work from office. There are far more dynamics at play than personal productivity - team and business productivity as a whole is far more important and rarely talked about. Many times as a manger of a fully WFH team I'd force some grumpy sysadmin in for a few days a week for a month as we knocked out a project. Sure they got "nothing done" those two days according to them, but they unblocked critical projects for the rest of the team during that time that simply was not happening while they were in their "focus cave". To this day they will tell you it was a waste of their time and WFH would have been far more productive. I highly disagree. As you say, everyone is different. As are situations. Some of the highest velocity teams I've interacted with were a handful of highly skilled seniors geographically distributed. There are projects I can think of I could call a few folks and form a fully remote team, and other projects I'd very much want to be on-prem "mostly office". It all depends. There is something to be said about looking back the past 25 years. While I remember some fond moments from my spare bedroom, I remember far more from in-office interactions. I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about that fact in another 20 years. Edit: I do wonder how opinions would differ if we invented free teleportation tomorrow. I wonder how much of this is commute vs. actual preferred work environment. For me it's mostly commute - give me a private office people respect and I'd likely prefer it with a teleportation pad in my living room.

acapybara 3y ago

oh, the irony of accusing someone of not reading the article when it appears you've missed the crux of his argument. He's not advocating for a 100% remote work lifestyle; He's merely emphasizing the significant benefits that remote work has to offer. Of course, there's value in spending time together, especially for early-stage startups. The creative sparks that fly in face-to-face brainstorming sessions can be unparalleled. However, striking a balance between in-person and remote work is key. It's not an all-or-nothing scenario. Remote work has proven its worth in productivity, work-life balance, and environmental impact, among other aspects. To ignore those factors in favor of a rigid, in-office culture would be a disservice to the progress we've made thus far. Let's not be so quick to dismiss remote work as a whole just because of its potential limitations in specific contexts. Rather, let's embrace its benefits, while acknowledging that a hybrid approach can provide the best of both worlds. Ultimately, isn't that what we're all after—finding a balance that maximizes productivity, creativity, and overall well-being?

cariP84944 3y ago

You thinks it’s a coincidence what he’s saying, without hard proof/data, also solves the lease issue? No one would ever have ulterior motives. Almost half of the upcoming generation(s) of political and industry leaders socialize online more than offline. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35780201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35780201 Seems to me the market has spoken. Mechanized travel is toxic and expensive. Offices AND homes are toxic and expensive. Personal devices AND job devices are toxic and expensive. There’s a lot of duplication going on to satisfy career roleplay. What a shock the people who will still be around, growing increasingly frustrated with Boomers and GenX demanding full speed ahead as usual, what a shock those coming up after are choosing a different route. Around 13-14, teens brains deprioritize moms voice for new information. We are stateful beings. It’s not a stretch the need to seek new information runs our entire lives. Boomers and GenX are selling “more of the same!” https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/teenager-brain-mother-voice.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/teenager-brai... How sad if the latest iteration of the professional managerial class is told to take a hike. How we don’t see forcing the same old on the kids as tacit ageism against youth, I have no idea. Anyone that’s decided not to join a religion leveraged their free agency to blow off an elders sensibilities. “American Civic Life” of the last 50-60 years is not a divine mandate. We didn’t sign contracts to prop up VCs choices, or leases.