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I understand the point you're trying to make but I'm not sure if you've actually proven it. > A crypto token cannot be economically more productive What about

I understand the point you're trying to make but I'm not sure if you've actually proven it. > A crypto token cannot be economically more productive What about when ETH was upgraded to use less power? Or future upgrades to reduce transaction fees? Ditto for the other planned upgrades: https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1588669782471368704?s=20 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/158866978247136870... Unless you are arguing that the whole network is worthless, so upgrading something worthless is still worthless? Is that what you're saying? Regarding "The reason the stock market grows is because businesses on that market grow" isn't there also an opposite scenario, where more investments (into factories, etc..) get made by companies/individuals with cash reserves during a recession because prices have come down? https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-data/ https://www.businessofapps.com/data/apple-data/ Using AAPL as an example, company revenue has steadily been going up since at least 2005 (with Q1 2008 being a record quarter), so why wasn't it spared during the 2008 recession? Is it not because of meme-nomics in the stock market? Similarly, why do people say "buy on the rumor, sell on the news" if stock market reflects business reality? > When people stop entering the system, tomorrow -- or in a decade -- the whole thing collapses Isn't that exactly what Marx predicted of the capitalist system as a whole? I again fail to see the difference between crypto and the rest of finance. If anything, crypto, seems like a more extreme version of the traditional system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism) Also, I don't think BTC/ETH would cease to function if the prices went down. You seem to be confusing the promises made by certain charlatans with the actual utility of these assets, which is that they are inherently traceable and can be used to avoid things like this: https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-black-231154593.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-... And I am aware that they are not the ONLY solution to this problem, but I don't see how you can argue that they have no utility at all.

mjburgess 3y ago
Stock markets are poor indicators of the economic reality of underlying businesses because they're subject to some of the same issues crypto is -- but it has one "ruthless honesty mechanism" -- the need, over the medium term -- for businesses to actually grow & compete. Insofar as private interests can manipulate these conditions, the numbers arent reliable either. Eg., many regard private equity as half-a-scam for these reasons: those numbers are also made up. However, crypto is one of the most extreme cases of this pathology. It's a pure fiction: no t-shirts are being made; no apps being sold. My time today is as productive as it is tomorrow; no crypto will change that for me, or anyone. Indeed, crypto is negative sum: money is being burned to run the mining. So, we're actually worse off. Crypto isnt zero value, in most cases, it's value is negative. Sell everything off, and some people will be owed money (mostly, the energy companies). This is egregious. It's hard to overstate how dangerously stupid this is -- it's economic homeopathy. The reason a BTC might be worth tomorrow is the same reason a beanie babby mightve been, or a misprinted stamp: just the belief that some other people want it. Not that they do want it -- no, there arent enough people to sustain this belief. Just the appearance that enough people want it. If i have 1,000,000 coffee beans and the first bean goes for a dollar, I can imagine myself a millionaire... until i try to sell the rest. A significant reason that the hodl cultishness is pushed is precisely so people wont do this.
- pazimzadeh 3y ago
  > no t-shirts are being made; no apps being sold The T-shirt being made is that the transactions are traceable, verifiable, and the system is hard for one (state) actor to shut down or control. Again, I'm not arguing that crypto is the only way to get these benefits, but the idea that there is zero utility seems ludicrous. > money is being burned to run the mining But money is also wasted you call it with the traditional system: https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-black-231154593.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-... I tried to find an estimate of how many dollars have gone into crypto mining so far, but was unable to find it. However, I would bet that it's less than 35 trillion dollars

mjburgess 3y ago

Stock markets are poor indicators of the economic reality of underlying businesses because they're subject to some of the same issues crypto is -- but it has one "ruthless honesty mechanism" -- the need, over the medium term -- for businesses to actually grow & compete. Insofar as private interests can manipulate these conditions, the numbers arent reliable either. Eg., many regard private equity as half-a-scam for these reasons: those numbers are also made up. However, crypto is one of the most extreme cases of this pathology. It's a pure fiction: no t-shirts are being made; no apps being sold. My time today is as productive as it is tomorrow; no crypto will change that for me, or anyone. Indeed, crypto is negative sum: money is being burned to run the mining. So, we're actually worse off. Crypto isnt zero value, in most cases, it's value is negative. Sell everything off, and some people will be owed money (mostly, the energy companies). This is egregious. It's hard to overstate how dangerously stupid this is -- it's economic homeopathy. The reason a BTC might be worth tomorrow is the same reason a beanie babby mightve been, or a misprinted stamp: just the belief that some other people want it. Not that they do want it -- no, there arent enough people to sustain this belief. Just the appearance that enough people want it. If i have 1,000,000 coffee beans and the first bean goes for a dollar, I can imagine myself a millionaire... until i try to sell the rest. A significant reason that the hodl cultishness is pushed is precisely so people wont do this.

pazimzadeh 3y ago
> no t-shirts are being made; no apps being sold The T-shirt being made is that the transactions are traceable, verifiable, and the system is hard for one (state) actor to shut down or control. Again, I'm not arguing that crypto is the only way to get these benefits, but the idea that there is zero utility seems ludicrous. > money is being burned to run the mining But money is also wasted you call it with the traditional system: https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-black-231154593.html https://www.yahoo.com/video/pentagon-35-trillion-accounting-... I tried to find an estimate of how many dollars have gone into crypto mining so far, but was unable to find it. However, I would bet that it's less than 35 trillion dollars