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No it's not. Honestly, the fact that this website displays like shit without JavaScript enabled is ironic considering it uses HTMX. Please just use the damn fu

No it's not. Honestly, the fact that this website displays like shit without JavaScript enabled is ironic considering it uses HTMX. Please just use the damn full-stack JS frameworks, they make life simpler, just wait for WebAssembly to allow us to have full-stack Rust/Go/whatever frameworks, and then you can abandon JavaScript, otherwise you get the mess of websites like this one where the developer has not written JavaScript, but the website still needs it for me to be able to read a _damn blog post_. Otherwise, stick with RoR, Django, Laravel, or whatever ticks your fancies, but HTMX just ain't for everyone and everything, it's supposed to be used for hypermedia, not for web apps or anything else, just that: hypermedia. And no, JavaScript libraries aren't all "complicated" and "full of churn", React is. Stop using React, or otherwise accept the nature of its development, and stop complaining. There are hundreds of different JavaScript libraries and yet every single time I see people bashing on full stack JavaScript they just keep repeating "React" like it's the only library in the world and the only way developers have written code for the last decade. Also, tangentially related, can we as an industry stop acting like kids and stop following these "trends"? The author talks about a "SPA-craze" but what I've been seeing more and more now is the contrary movement, however it's based on the same idea of a hype cycle, with developers adopting technology because it's cool or whatever and not really considering what are their actual needs and which tools will provide them with that. Rant over.

lakomen 3y ago
[flagged]
- doodlesdev 3y ago
  I'm sorry for saying something you disagree with. Next time I'll ask for permission to comment my opinion. Really, what's the point of your comment? At least state why you think I have no idea what I'm talking about, the way you wrote it adds literally nothing to the conversation.
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines like this! We have to ban accounts that do that. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
tsuujin 3y ago
> Please just use the damn fullstack JS frameworks, they make life simpler Strongest possible disagree. I’ve been doing web dev for a long time, and the last 10 years has seen a massive, ridiculous increase in complexity across the board. I personally took my company back to good old server rendered apps with a turbolinks overlay because I was sick of dealing with the full stack frameworks, and we saw a huge increase in productivity and developer happiness.
- doodlesdev 3y ago
  Hotwire is appropriate (I imagine you're not using actual Turbolinks which has been deprecated) with RoR or whatever stack you want, I agree it's great developer experience (despite Ruby and Rails being painfully slow haha). I wonder which full-stack JS framework you used that you thought made life harder? One of the things that gets me mad is the idea of putting it all in one single box, as React is indeed very (needlessly) complex and so can be other libraries, but that doesn't mean the paradigm of JavaScript front-to-back is fundamentally flawed. edit: Something else I should've added to my comment is that the HTMX approach is terrible if you ever need more than just the web-client (i.e. a mobile app, native or otherwise) since you will now have to implement an API anyway, which you could've done in the first place by taking the usual approach to development.
  - tsuujin 3y ago
    > I wonder which full-stack JS framework you used that you thought made life harder? I’ve used Angular, Dart, Backbone, Ember, Elm, React, Vue, Svelte, and a few others I can’t remember anymore. All in production systems, not demo projects. Also some of the “build it once” platforms like Meteor. They’re all cool until you have to actually maintain them. My favorite part is having to build my data models twice, one for the producer and one for the consumer. That’s totally never caused any headaches or slowed anyone down at all.
    - doodlesdev 3y ago
      > I’ve used Angular, Dart, Backbone, Ember, Elm, React, Vue, Svelte, and a few others I can’t remember anymore. All in production systems, not demo projects. Also some of the “build it once” platforms like Meteor. That's quite a lot of libraries lol, I guess no one can say you just haven't found the right library I must admit I've used Hotwire much less than I should've, but I still feel comfortable with full-stack JavaScript (or rather, TypeScript). You said you migrated back to Turbo, what backend framework do you use? RoR with Hotwire is so nice, but I personally avoid it because of Ruby (not personally a fan), to be fair the same is true for most full-stack frameworks I avoid (such as Django/Python).

lakomen 3y ago

[flagged]

doodlesdev 3y ago
I'm sorry for saying something you disagree with. Next time I'll ask for permission to comment my opinion. Really, what's the point of your comment? At least state why you think I have no idea what I'm talking about, the way you wrote it adds literally nothing to the conversation.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
dang 3y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines like this! We have to ban accounts that do that. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

tsuujin 3y ago

> Please just use the damn fullstack JS frameworks, they make life simpler Strongest possible disagree. I’ve been doing web dev for a long time, and the last 10 years has seen a massive, ridiculous increase in complexity across the board. I personally took my company back to good old server rendered apps with a turbolinks overlay because I was sick of dealing with the full stack frameworks, and we saw a huge increase in productivity and developer happiness.

doodlesdev 3y ago
Hotwire is appropriate (I imagine you're not using actual Turbolinks which has been deprecated) with RoR or whatever stack you want, I agree it's great developer experience (despite Ruby and Rails being painfully slow haha). I wonder which full-stack JS framework you used that you thought made life harder? One of the things that gets me mad is the idea of putting it all in one single box, as React is indeed very (needlessly) complex and so can be other libraries, but that doesn't mean the paradigm of JavaScript front-to-back is fundamentally flawed. edit: Something else I should've added to my comment is that the HTMX approach is terrible if you ever need more than just the web-client (i.e. a mobile app, native or otherwise) since you will now have to implement an API anyway, which you could've done in the first place by taking the usual approach to development.
- tsuujin 3y ago
  > I wonder which full-stack JS framework you used that you thought made life harder? I’ve used Angular, Dart, Backbone, Ember, Elm, React, Vue, Svelte, and a few others I can’t remember anymore. All in production systems, not demo projects. Also some of the “build it once” platforms like Meteor. They’re all cool until you have to actually maintain them. My favorite part is having to build my data models twice, one for the producer and one for the consumer. That’s totally never caused any headaches or slowed anyone down at all.
  - doodlesdev 3y ago
    > I’ve used Angular, Dart, Backbone, Ember, Elm, React, Vue, Svelte, and a few others I can’t remember anymore. All in production systems, not demo projects. Also some of the “build it once” platforms like Meteor. That's quite a lot of libraries lol, I guess no one can say you just haven't found the right library I must admit I've used Hotwire much less than I should've, but I still feel comfortable with full-stack JavaScript (or rather, TypeScript). You said you migrated back to Turbo, what backend framework do you use? RoR with Hotwire is so nice, but I personally avoid it because of Ruby (not personally a fan), to be fair the same is true for most full-stack frameworks I avoid (such as Django/Python).