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It does take a lot of resources to protect a cryptocurrency from attack by corporations and nation states. Typically the resources have to be significant enough

It does take a lot of resources to protect a cryptocurrency from attack by corporations and nation states. Typically the resources have to be significant enough that those entities don't find it a worthy trade to perform the attack. That's what proof of work does. It performs the same role as a standing army except it does it non-violently. And that's amazing. Well worth it.

discreteevent 4y ago
> That's what proof of work does. It performs the same role as a standing army So if I invent a token where I can prove to you that I burned electricity to mint it, will you accept it in return for some of your possessions or your labour?
paulgb 4y ago
How do you reconcile that with the fact that 8/10 of the top coins by market cap do not use proof of work? (https://coinmarketcap.com/ https://coinmarketcap.com/; Bitcoin and Dogecoin are the only PoW ones IIRC)
- 1-more 4y ago
  The market cap of the PoW coins is 127% of that of the PoS ones. But it probably matters more the daily trading volume of them? Not really sure.
  - sharperguy 4y ago
    The only thing that matters is how the system performs under a sustained attack. Any "cryptocurrency" system which depends on the lack of such an attack could be relpaced with a federated system and instantly be thousands of times more efficient. Coins like tether cannot continue to exist unless they are allowed to continue.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    The real metric here is how many people are buying and selling things (not coins themselves) with a cryptocurrency. For actually using it as a currency bitcoin is still unchallenged. Markets and traders are just an unfortunate side effect that now are more associated with the word "cryptocurrency" than the actual use of cryptocurrencies in the public mind.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  No coin apart from BTC is a digital asset immune to government attacks. Not even ETH. And DOGE is a joke.
mvdtnz 4y ago
It's not "worth it" until the "currencies" can demonstrate some value. What can I buy and sell with them, today? And how is it superior to doing the same thing with my Visa? (Assume for now I am not buying anything illegal).
- glerk 4y ago
  I can move my assets across borders instantaneously and exchange them for local currency whenever I need it. There is value in digital assets that are not bound to any jurisdiction.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    I assume you're going to whip out another currency that doesn't or suggest that the user complicate their experience by using a third party as an intermediary, but don't bitcoin transactions take over an hour to clear? And your use case is the exact same thing I can do instantly with my MasterCard.
    - Zpalmtree 4y ago
      No, they take under 10 minutes, a business will often wait for a large amount of confirmations of the block your tx is included in to ensure they aren't vulnerable to a double spend, but if you're sending to a trusted party then this delay is not required. Can you use your MasterCard to pay a Russian person?
    - glerk 4y ago
      A bitcoin block is mined every 10min and 1-2 blocks is usually enough for the transaction to be considered settled (6 blocks used to be the convention, but with today’s hash rates it is very unlikely 2 blocks will be reversed). The confirmation time is different depending on the network, for example, Algorand has ~4s transaction finality. And yeah, you can use MasterCard until you hit your daily withdrawal limit, or your account is frozen, or your transactions are flagged and reversed and you have to explain why you want to spend your own money a certain way.
fatfingerd 4y ago
A standing army is nonviolent. Proof of work is proof of violence, not the capability of violence.
- tromp 4y ago
  Are you saying a standing army doesn't have a huge energy expenditure? Besides, labeling energy expenditure as violence seems quite the stretch...
  - fatfingerd 4y ago
    The US army happens to be very violent even as a standing army since energy waste is an alternative to a much larger less trained army. But practically speaking the genocide of everyone is the worst possible violence and its most likely cause will be continued market for fossil fuels. Murdering every soldier on the planet with a reusable knife could only slow that down a decade or two. (If at all.. Prices would drop, reducing some supply but also driving private sector usage up.)
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
> It performs the same role as a standing army except it does it non-violently. It does so at the cost of enormous amounts of pollution. Sure it's non-violent, but it's still disastrously wasteful and after well more than a decade hasn't proven to really be anything more than a way for speculators to get rich off other speculators.
croes 4y ago
I would call the effect on climate change not-violent. >It does take a lot of resources to protect a cryptocurrency from attack by corporations and nation states. What do you think where this resources come from? Corporations and nation states.

discreteevent 4y ago

> That's what proof of work does. It performs the same role as a standing army So if I invent a token where I can prove to you that I burned electricity to mint it, will you accept it in return for some of your possessions or your labour?

paulgb 4y ago

How do you reconcile that with the fact that 8/10 of the top coins by market cap do not use proof of work? (https://coinmarketcap.com/ https://coinmarketcap.com/; Bitcoin and Dogecoin are the only PoW ones IIRC)

1-more 4y ago
The market cap of the PoW coins is 127% of that of the PoS ones. But it probably matters more the daily trading volume of them? Not really sure.
- sharperguy 4y ago
  The only thing that matters is how the system performs under a sustained attack. Any "cryptocurrency" system which depends on the lack of such an attack could be relpaced with a federated system and instantly be thousands of times more efficient. Coins like tether cannot continue to exist unless they are allowed to continue.
- superkuh 4y ago
  The real metric here is how many people are buying and selling things (not coins themselves) with a cryptocurrency. For actually using it as a currency bitcoin is still unchallenged. Markets and traders are just an unfortunate side effect that now are more associated with the word "cryptocurrency" than the actual use of cryptocurrencies in the public mind.
RestlessMind 4y ago
No coin apart from BTC is a digital asset immune to government attacks. Not even ETH. And DOGE is a joke.

mvdtnz 4y ago

It's not "worth it" until the "currencies" can demonstrate some value. What can I buy and sell with them, today? And how is it superior to doing the same thing with my Visa? (Assume for now I am not buying anything illegal).

glerk 4y ago
I can move my assets across borders instantaneously and exchange them for local currency whenever I need it. There is value in digital assets that are not bound to any jurisdiction.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  I assume you're going to whip out another currency that doesn't or suggest that the user complicate their experience by using a third party as an intermediary, but don't bitcoin transactions take over an hour to clear? And your use case is the exact same thing I can do instantly with my MasterCard.
  - Zpalmtree 4y ago
    No, they take under 10 minutes, a business will often wait for a large amount of confirmations of the block your tx is included in to ensure they aren't vulnerable to a double spend, but if you're sending to a trusted party then this delay is not required. Can you use your MasterCard to pay a Russian person?
  - glerk 4y ago
    A bitcoin block is mined every 10min and 1-2 blocks is usually enough for the transaction to be considered settled (6 blocks used to be the convention, but with today’s hash rates it is very unlikely 2 blocks will be reversed). The confirmation time is different depending on the network, for example, Algorand has ~4s transaction finality. And yeah, you can use MasterCard until you hit your daily withdrawal limit, or your account is frozen, or your transactions are flagged and reversed and you have to explain why you want to spend your own money a certain way.

fatfingerd 4y ago

A standing army is nonviolent. Proof of work is proof of violence, not the capability of violence.

tromp 4y ago
Are you saying a standing army doesn't have a huge energy expenditure? Besides, labeling energy expenditure as violence seems quite the stretch...
- fatfingerd 4y ago
  The US army happens to be very violent even as a standing army since energy waste is an alternative to a much larger less trained army. But practically speaking the genocide of everyone is the worst possible violence and its most likely cause will be continued market for fossil fuels. Murdering every soldier on the planet with a reusable knife could only slow that down a decade or two. (If at all.. Prices would drop, reducing some supply but also driving private sector usage up.)

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago

> It performs the same role as a standing army except it does it non-violently. It does so at the cost of enormous amounts of pollution. Sure it's non-violent, but it's still disastrously wasteful and after well more than a decade hasn't proven to really be anything more than a way for speculators to get rich off other speculators.

croes 4y ago

I would call the effect on climate change not-violent. >It does take a lot of resources to protect a cryptocurrency from attack by corporations and nation states. What do you think where this resources come from? Corporations and nation states.