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Apple’s Unionized Store Wants to Start Accepting Tips from Customers
- Apocryphon 3y agoI wonder if the tipping system is envisioned for Genius Bar work, which is more like a specialist consulting service rather than purchasing merchandise.
- seattle_spring 3y agoFuck that. Tipping culture is ridiculous as it is. No way in hell someone deserves a tip showing you the capabilities of an iphone. Especially not with the current POS systems that ask for a minimum of 20%.
- polishdude20 3y agoYeah isn't it literally your basic minimum job requirement to be showing people the capabilities of an iphone? You want me to buy your product, YOU show me why I should want it.
- hn_throawlles 3y agothe point is who pays for this 'service' work? Apple? the corporation designing the devices being potentially bought or you? the potential customer paying with a tip to the store's employee??
- ezconnect 3y agoApple doesn't include manuals for their devices like the old days. They are left to be discovered by users on their own. Apple should be the one paying for this 'service' work because they don't include manuals.
- polishdude20 3y agoApple. Definitely Apple.
- ASalazarMX 3y agoThis may be controversial, but I think the company who hired the salesmen/employees should pay them.
- s17n 3y agoJust don’t tip, problem solved. (Obviously you have to tip in restaurants to not be a monster, but everywhere else just don’t do it. And if you want to not tip waiters… the world needs monsters sometimes.)
- pb7 3y agoOnly a matter of time before people think you're a monster for not tipping 20% on your iPhone too.
- George83728 3y agoNo, it's not like that. The institution of tipping waitresses is baked into the minimum wage laws for waitresses, that's why you're a monster if you refuse to tip them. In all other circumstances it's considered optional in exchange for particularly good service (barbers, taxi drivers). Cashiers working behind a counter get at least the normal minimum wage. It is not considered socially obligatory to tip them. And tipping salesmen is unheard of, the social convention is that salesmen get commissions from their employer, not tips from the customers. Tipping is only considered socially obligatory for waitresses and this hasn't changed.
- pb7 3y agoAlaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington all have the same minimum wage for both tipped and non-tipped employees. Unsurprisingly, people see you as no less of a monster if you don't tip there.
- George83728 3y agoI think the culture of tipping waitresses persists in those states because these are relatively new laws and don't apply in most parts of the country.
- frumper 3y ago
- George83728 3y ago> the current POS systems that ask for a minimum of 20%. My rule is to only ever tip with cash and only then directly into the hands of the worker. Tipping through a computer system is a scam, the business owner almost certainly takes most of it. If you're paying with a credit card, X out the tip field and leave cash instead. And of course, never tip in cases where it isn't customary to tip. Waitresses, bartenders, barbers and taxi drivers. That's about it. Tipping into tip jars is never customary, don't do it. Never tip at a starbucks or a business where you get your own food at the counter. And you sure as hell should never tip a salesman, these Apple store workers have lost the plot.
- jareds 3y agoDo we know if there serious about this? I'd hope the union negotiators would realize there was likely to be a backlash to this and put out this request as a bargaining point they won't fight very hard for.
- George83728 3y agoIt's so far beyond the pale, I earnestly believe they've likely been set up to look ridiculous. They've probably been fed this horrible idea by Apple, or a covert union buster (Pinkertons, etc) hired by Apple. To ask for tips makes the union look completely unreasonable and out of touch, which is good for Apple. If they were doing as you say, asking for something they're unlikely to get as a negotiation tactic, they should have asked for commissions. Salesmen getting commissions would be perceived as completely reasonable. It degrade the customer experience by making the salesmen pushier, but commission for salesmen is totally conventional while tips for salesmen is pants-on-head dumb and bizarre.
- macintux 3y agoJohn Gruber’s take: > But this tipping proposal is so antithetical to Apple’s customer-first retail experience that it feels like a joke, or that the union negotiators have never even been in an Apple Store. https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-maryland-union-tips https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/04/apple-store-mar...
- Salgat 3y agoYeah I don't see Apple agreeing to this. They'll just hire scabs over this, even if it means paying the scabs a competitive wage.
- pchristensen 3y agoThe next line was great too: "They might as well ask for employees to be allowed to vape while working."
- sky_rw 3y agoHe equates it to vaping. I'd take an employee blowing clouds of raspberry smoke in my face over 22% tip on a Macbook any day.
- zassy 3y agoTo ensure the livelihood of our geniuses in these trying times we’ve added an automatic gratuity of 18% for all orders over $200. Thank you for your understanding.
- jnsie 3y ago"Siri, what is 20% of a $1000 iPhone?"
- badwolf 3y agoOh ffs, tipping is getting completely out of hand.
- lnsru 3y agoAggressive asking for tipping will drive customers away and the shop can be closed. The shop workers aren’t helping themselves with such measures in the time of online shopping.
- geodel 3y agoThis is why unions are must today. Helping workers earn a little bit more in these uncertain times. Kudos to them for pointing out such an obvious source of additional income.
- bombcar 3y agoThis is so ridiculous that I assume it is intentional sabotage. Isn't the whole idea behind unionization that we can get beyond tipping? https://archive.ph/v1tpo https://archive.ph/v1tpo >In addition to an overall raise, representatives from the store are asking Apple for higher pay over a larger slate of holidays, including the day after Thanksgiving. The union is also seeking to expand vacation pay and available time off based on years of service. And it wants to extend paid bereavement leave from 10 days per occurrence to a maximum of 45 days a year and for the policy to include pets and close friends. 45 days a year for pet bereavement? If it includes goldfish, I'm in!
- Apocryphon 3y agoAmericans love pets, to the point of not getting evacuated from Hurricane Katrina when ordered to leave their pets behind. This trend has only compounded in recent decades, with the mainstreaming of emotional support animals and the like. So if bereavement can apply to non-kin friends, pets are arguably not a far stretch behind. Not to mention pets are often a substitue for children, as can be seen in cities like San Francisco.
- makestuff 3y ago"Isn't the whole idea behind unionization that we can get beyond tipping?" Every time this comes up on Reddit people in the food service industry say they do not want to get rid of tips.
- pb7 3y agoThat's because complaints about tips are bald-faced lies. Tipped employees make much more with tips than they would otherwise, doubly so because cash tips are chronically unreported to the IRS. Income numbers are skewed across the board because the US's service industry participates in blatant tax evasion.
- makestuff 3y agoOh I completely understand why they like tips. I have a feeling all of these new IRS agents are going to crack down on it though. It has to be pretty easy to track now that most tipping happens digitally via the POS system.
- m463 3y agoI wonder how this will interact with the "it's out of warranty, but we will do this once, just for you" sort of situation?
- cmckn 3y agoWhile I’m 100% sure this will never happen, I’m still a bit floored this was even brought to the table by the union. What a patently absurd idea.
- no_wizard 3y agoI am shocked a labor union is okay with tipping as a mechanism of compensation. Its antithetical to their own goals usually, let alone Apple is not going to take kind to this. Tipping is out of control as it is, at least in the US. Where does it stop I have to wonder. Lets just keep the fight about fair wages, benefits and working conditions first and foremost. This feels like its waiting for public backlash
- yanderekko 3y ago>I am shocked a labor union is okay with tipping as a mechanism of compensation. Its antithetical to their own goals usually, let alone Apple is not going to take kind to this. I am utterly unshocked, as most service workers seem to view tipping culture as providing a free boost to wages - and if so, why should they not fight for this via a union?
- monero-xmr 3y ago[flagged]
- scrollaway 3y ago"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."
- arghnoname 3y agoThe person you are replying to said neither of these things. Unions, like most human institutions, have their pros and cons. They generally try to pursue the interests of their members, but their members are human and as humans, sometimes things go sideways or ultimately are self-destructive. Unions on balance do generally improve the lives of their members, but only an idiot would unconditionally approve of everything they do.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- flandish 3y agoWhy are you shocked? Starbucks employees have formed unions and tipping is still allowed. Wanting tipping is a signal that pay is not high enough - you see it here, with the reactions. A deeper look might reveal they could be paid more. Just like Starbucks employees.
- Eumenes 3y agoI'd rather tip the Foxconn workers
- boredumb 3y agoObviously a PR grab by the union itself, but it seems like they are a little deaf about how a large portion of the population views unions.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoI read this and thought it was satire. Tipping? For electronics purchases? Why don't I tip the employees at Best Buy for selling me a washing machine?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- George83728 3y ago[flagged]
- throw74774 3y ago[dead]
- arghnoname 3y agoLike a lot of people, I waited tables for a few years in my youth and also did pizza delivery and was paid well under minimum wage if I excluded my tips. Tips largely shift salary burden from the employer to more directly from the customer, who like an old lord, may decide whether and how much he wants to pay the peasants serving him. I always tip very well because I empathize with and appreciate the services provided by people at this layer of the economy. However, I hate it. I found it demeaning that my salary as a waiter was dependent on fluffing up the customer and found it gross at best how compelled the girls were to flirt because of how much it inflated their tips. As a customer it adds a psychic burden--decisions suck. Now I have to do math and decide my level of generosity. Do I really need to tip Starbucks for the brewed coffee I just ordered? And so on. I don't like this additional friction with every human interaction I have that involves commerce.
- whimsicalism 3y agoOrganizing against a company like Apple is pretty much exclusively about how you can leverage media attention to get concessions. Apple has no problem locking you out and replacing, except for the negative media & consequential consumer impact. So it seems like it would make sense to ask for things that the customer would actually like/be okay with, like basic higher pay, some sort of seniority structure maybe, etc.
- anigbrowl 3y agoAgreed, but it does not make sense to add in absurd/burner requests and then attract all kinds of bad PR for your previously serious negotiating effort.
- whimsicalism 3y agoRight, which was my point
- anigbrowl 3y agoOh, I thought you meant they threw this in to get media attention for their struggle. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
- virgildotcodes 3y agoI unironically believe that the tipping demand is the result of an internal plant intentionally sabotaging the union. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
- Apocryphon 3y agoTitle is clickbait, which this entire thread has fallen for. Tipping is mentioned in two paragraphs out of an entire article worth of eminently reasonable requests and terms. Who knows what the actual context is. Maybe this was a half-hearted idea that was tossed into a long list. Bloomberg just chose to zero in on it as a title to make the union seem deranged. > The workers’ negotiators also want Apple to adopt a tipping system, letting patrons offer gratuities in increments of 3%, 5% or a custom amount for in-store credit-card transactions. > “This will allow thankful patrons the ability to express gratitude for a job well done without any obligations,” the union wrote Apple. “All monies collected through this manner would be dispersed to members of the bargaining unit biweekly based on any hours worked.” That’s it. The entirety of the rest of the article is not focused on tipping.
- compiler-guy 3y agoIf the union wants to be taken seriously, then it needs to make serious proposals. The rest of the proposal is dog-bites-man, which isn't really news. This is so far out in left field that of course it is news. It may be a small piece of the proposal, and perhaps even a negotiating tactic, but it makes the union look unreasonable and impossibly out of touch.
- Apocryphon 3y agoIt’s one minor point. I think HN’s hatred of tipping culture has been triggered and all of this is a disproportionate response about a point that will likely get dropped in the first round of negotiations.
- compiler-guy 3y agoI don't think it is just hatred of tipping culture--although that is there too--but also a general skepticism about unions. Unions have a pretty severe credibility problem among significant pieces of the HN crowd, and this proposal is so absurd that it makes the problem worse.
- gautamdivgi 3y ago
- thih9 3y agoWhy not ask for sales commission instead? Tipping sounds like a bad idea for both the customer and the employees.
- Apocryphon 3y agoTitle is clickbait, which this entire thread has fallen for. Tipping is mentioned in two paragraphs out of an entire article worth of eminently reasonable requests and terms. Who knows what the actual context is. Maybe this was a half-hearted idea that was tossed into a long list. Bloomberg just chose to zero in on it as a title to make the union seem deranged.
- macintux 3y agoTipping for help at an Apple Store is so insanely absurd that of course anyone with journalist credentials is going to focus on that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bombcar 3y agoI'm not so sure, some of these things seem unreasonable: >And it wants to extend paid bereavement leave from 10 days per occurrence to a maximum of 45 days a year and for the policy to include pets and close friends. >Tipping >Finally, the union is asking Apple to pay $1 an hour more to employees who become first-aid certified, and to provide as many as 34 weeks of severance pay in the event of a layoff. I get the idea of asking for everything as a starting point, but some of these are just wow.
- anigbrowl 3y agoFirst aid certification is worth something. Not sure it's worth $2000/year, given that a customer who suffered a medical episode in an Apple store would probably end up suing Apple anyway, but it does add value. It's also something the union could organize as a quid pro quo. 34 weeks of severance seems wildly optimistic though.
- bombcar 3y agoApple paying for your first aid certification (even paying more than it costs to get it) would seem reasonable; having the ability to have employees who are paid more for it would open them to amusing liability, I'd assume (imagine someone has an incident and nobody currently in the building is one of these power-employees, or one attempts first aid and something occurs).
- dragonwriter 3y agoI suspect this is an attempt to highlight the 10% pay increase demand and to be “sacrificed” in negotiation to protect it, but I could be wrong.
- meindnoch 3y agoThis must be satire.
- pb7 3y agoUnions in safe jobs once again showing why they're mostly a clown show.
- mdasen 3y agoI'm guessing that the tips is more a bargaining tactic than a real ask. They're also asking for 45 paid days off for "bereavement leave" including for the death of a close friend or pet. 45 days of paid leave would be over 2 months off. It seems unlikely that a company would consider 2 months paid leave for the death of a pet. Imagine employees buying goldfish.
- anigbrowl 3y agoThat's no excuse. 'No harm in asking' BS requests are antithetical to serious negotiation. It doesn't matter what side it comes from. This isn't just a union v corporation thing, it shows up in all sorts of contexts like lowballers on Craigslist or bid sniping on Ebay. Almost invariably it's simple greed.
- a13o 3y agoThis is a great negotiation tactic by the union. Tipping would be anti-thematic to the whole Star Trek utopia vibe the Apple Store is going for. They of course know that, so asking Apple for this opens a door on deeper salary negotiations. It also makes great clickbait!
- dev_tty01 3y agoIt is such a transparent move that it comes across as amateur hour negotiating in bad faith. That will not help their cause.
- a13o 3y agoI didn't even know Apple was underpaying their store employees, and now this is what I'll think of when I see their stores. So in that sense, they are already successful. Good luck to the union workers in the rest of their negotiations.
- Workaccount2 3y agoIf you have never worked a tipped job, let me clue you into something: You make substantially more than other jobs of the same skill level. I'm not talking edge cases like waffle house in rural Arkansas, if you work for tips somewhere where people are, you are going to be making a killing relative to other work. This is why you get talking out of both sides of tipped workers mouths. Tips are perpetually terrible and not enough, while switching to regular hourly pay is a hard no. Of course these workers want tips, they probably envision getting tipped $200 for picking the $1000 iPhone off the shelf. Delusional.
- badwolf 3y agoThe double-speak from people about tipping "I only get paid $2.15 an hour!" ... Yet the story changes the other way when mention of eliminating tipping and raising your wage comes up.
- pb7 3y agoOr the complaints about getting paychecks for $5 after working a week even though all that means is that their tips were so high that the entire base wage went towards tax withholding. Service industry workers lie and they lie a lot. Their tune would change very quickly if there was federal legislation outlawing tipping in lieu of higher minimum wage.
- Apocryphon 3y agoAlright, calm down Mr. Pink.
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- anigbrowl 3y agoI'm glad I finished eating my breakfast before reading that headline. I'm heartily in support of unions, it's great that they have one. Now use it and get what you want out of Apple instead of rattling a cup at people who walk into a store. I have never been in an Apple store myself, I'm sure the people there work hard and that it's quite demanding (which is why I support their having a union). But I also hate tip culture and American society's constant requests for money. Every place you go has a tip jar out. Every retailer puts on price on the shelf and then adds on tax and fees at the register, so that I have to do pointless mental arithmetic as I shop (especially annoying for groceries where there are many different items and prices fluctuate frequently). Every political campaign asks people for cash with a frequency that would make a Nigerian scammer blush. Every large nonprofit seems to spend an increasingly large % of its intake on further fundraising. I am not rich myself and I prioritize my charitable giving towards people I see that are in need but not asking for money. There's a lot of people who are not in desperate need (or sometimes in any great need at all, eg many political campaigns) and are constantly asking for money. This society disgusts me sometimes.
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- aspectmin 3y agoGuess I'll just be ordering online going forward.
- Simulacra 3y agoPlease. Don't.
- xracy 3y agoThis is a little sus to me. I'd be surprised if the actual end-goal of the union was getting tips. > Workers at Apple Inc.’s unionized store in Maryland are asking for higher pay and additional time off, along with changes that could affect the company’s tightly controlled retail experience, such as letting customers tip employees. That right there is giving this as an example, and not as the actual thing they want. I'm wondering if the narrative on this might've been editorialized. It would be more reasonable to me if someone had mentioned this in a general brainstorming session, and it wasn't an actual explicit goal of the union. "give me a pay raise, if you can't give it to me from your budget you could add tips"