8 ms·

Who has been "vanished"in the US? Jack Ma was essentially on house arrest for over a year after flying a little too close to the sun with his IPO plans. Peng S

by yafbum 3y ago

Who has been "vanished"in the US? Jack Ma was essentially on house arrest for over a year after flying a little too close to the sun with his IPO plans. Peng Shuai was on house arrest for denouncing sexual abuse by a CCP member. The psychological, widespread chilling effects of these high profile "vanishings" has absolutely no commonality with the Patriot act (bad as it is).

pphysch 3y ago
[flagged]
- sva_ 3y ago
  Could you let us in on your insider sources who know what happened to them during that time?
  - pphysch 3y ago
    There is no evidence, just speculation, that they were under arrest. They both said they were not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
    - voakbasda 3y ago
      There is sufficient evidence to believe that the CCP held a gun to their heads in order to coerce those statement. Quite possibly literally.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        I would be interested in seeing that if you happen to have it available.
      - pphysch 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 3y ago
        Please don't perpetuate flamewar on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. We've had to ask you this more than once before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        drdeca 3y ago
        P(A|B) * P(B) = P(A & B) = P(B|A) * P(A) (Under the assumption that P(B) > 0 and P(A) > 0 ): P(A|B) > P(A) iff P(A|B) * P(B) > P(A) * P(B) and so iff P(A & B) > P(A) * P(B) and therefore, by the same reasoning in the other direction, P(A|B) > P(A) iff P(B|A) > P(B) (Let A and B be “the CCP is evil” and “the CCP committed [some particular wrongdoing]”)
        pphysch 3y ago
        P(A)=1 is an axiom of mainstream Western thought.
        drdeca 3y ago
        While, uh, no, regardless, that has no bearing on my point, which is that your point claiming that [it is reasonable to treat A as evidence for B, but irrational/religious to treat B as evidence for A], is entirely wrong[1]. [1](... with the possible exception of observing something which one previously had assigned a probability of zero, but, this ideally should only ever happen for things where one at least had a positive probability density, in which case a similar argument should still work. I didn't feel like working out all the details in the case of continuous probability distributions, as it is finicky and in any case is irrelevant to the discrete events you mentioned.)
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  I remember thinking about this recently and coming to the same conclusion[0]. If Jack Ma was supposedly disappeared and placed under arrest while also denying that he was ever placed under an official arrest then there's some background shenanigans going on by the CCP. Not to say that can't happen, just that it's not more likely than Jack Ma realizing that he poked a very vengeful bear[1] and deciding to lay low. Peng Shuai might be different (I haven't encountered information on that case recently that comes to mind) but it's fair to assume the same thing from her. Otherwise the CCP did disappear at least one of them, which, admittedly, might happen if the appropriate decision-makers were willing to put such an operation into motion. That just doesn't really seem so significantly more likely than people choosing to retreat from the spotlight. [0] Because I encountered this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35775826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35775826 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35424678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35424678
- dpratt 3y ago
  "They were both temporarily excluded from the public eye, but they were not arrested." Does a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    > While both temporarily retreated from the public eye > They were both temporarily excluded from the public eye Retreated and excluded don't mean the same thing in this case.
  - pphysch 3y ago
    Deliberately misquoting to change meaning isn't cool.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    You can't post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There is a large set of past explanations about why we have this rule and why it's so important. You can find many by sifting through this history, if you (or anyone) wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... On China-related topics, which particularly give rise to this sort of attack, I put this list together for a user a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod. Nothing has changed since then.
falcolas 3y ago
[flagged]
- alpos 3y ago
  Note that this does not apply to US citizens. US citizens, even those accused of terrorism, still retain their legal rights under US law. That is what citizenship in any country, is. Can those rights be violated? Yes, governments do bad things all the time. But that is not the same as a foreign national participating in Al-Qaeda training camps and meeting with Osama bin Laden. No nation on Earth has a strong history of giving full citizenship legal rights to foreign nationals and/or enemy combatants captured in a warzone. Hicks was also returned to Australia to be dealt with by his own government, where presumably he then did retain his legal rights as a citizen of Australia. And at that point it would indeed be a violation on part of Australia if they did not treat him as any citizen of their nation should be treated. All of that said, Guantanamo has still been a completely broken and messed up situation. We the people of the US owe it to ourselves and the rest of the world to hold our government accountable for that and not allow it to happen again. It's just if you are wanting to say that the US treatment of it's citizens has been on par with China's treatment of it's citizens, your case may be better served by finding a more direct example.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > Can those rights be violated? Yes, governments do bad things all the time. But that is not the same as a foreign national participating in Al-Qaeda training camps and meeting with Osama bin Laden. No nation on Earth has a strong history of giving full citizenship legal rights to foreign nationals and/or enemy combatants captured in a warzone. You're aware that the US actually kidnapped random people because they had the misfortune of using the wrong watch type or having the same name as an alleged terrorist, right? They didn't "capture enemy combatants in a warzone". > Note that this does not apply to US citizens. US citizens, even those accused of terrorism, still retain their legal rights under US law. That is what citizenship in any country, is. And also murdered US citizens abroad that were alleged to have ties to terrorists, without due trial.
Convolutional 3y ago
The vanishings like the sheriff who had three voter registration workers killed in Mississippi are not common, it tends to be straightforward extrajudicial executions like Fred Hampton. I wouldn't even include the car bombing of 25 year old Ronni Moffitt in 1976. The US police are killing people all the time. In January police killed an environmentalist in January, Manuel Taran. The US kills and jails political prisoners all the time.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  Who would be the US's Jack Ma?
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    I don't believe the US could have a Jack Ma equivalent. We are more of a plutocracy than China is.
    - yafbum 3y ago
      There are about as many billionaires in China as in the US.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Plutocracy is about whether the billionaires or the politicians have the power. Not about the amount of billionaires.
        yafbum 3y ago
        Well then the power structure in China is much much MUCH narrower at the top (1 person for life)
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      we are not a plutocracy at all, that's ridiculous. There are many places in the world where rich people hardly pay taxes. That is not at all true in the US where "the 1%" pay 40% of the income tax https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/FBIP-SOCIAL-04.jpg https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/FBIP-SOCIAL-0... if the rich controlled the government, don't you think they'd lower their taxes? or are we lucky to be ruled by the rich because they are so benevolent?
gmerc 3y ago
What about generations of people medically experimented on and left with no recourse. We discussed that
- yafbum 3y ago
  We're talking about the Patriot act... Not "everything that ever was wrong with the US"
6_6_6_6 3y ago
[flagged]
orangepurple 3y ago
> Who has been "vanished" in the US? See Clinton Body Count Bob Marley - needle with oncogenic viruses implanted into shoe MLK Jr. - FBI–King suicide letter Seth Rich - You should remember this one easily Stephen Paddock - his life history was deleted from databases (4chan archived lots of it before it vanished) and he was hit with a character assassination to deflect from what actually happened in Vegas (failed firearms sale to would-be murderers of the Saudi royal family staying upstairs) That's just off the top of my head. Bill Oxley claimed to do in 17 people for Uncle Sam but the "legitimate news sites" which are totally not compromised by Operation Mockingbird conveniently discredit that theory.
- yafbum 3y ago
  Oh yeah crazy effects of the Patriot act indeed... Edit: your post kinda proves the point. You're evidently not afraid of posting stuff online that most people would consider crazy conspiracy BS ("Bill Oxley"?). In an actually oppressive regime, that shit would have landed you in jail already...
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    Add Stewart Rhodes to the list

by yafbum 3y ago

pphysch 3y ago

[flagged]

sva_ 3y ago
Could you let us in on your insider sources who know what happened to them during that time?
- pphysch 3y ago
  There is no evidence, just speculation, that they were under arrest. They both said they were not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
  - voakbasda 3y ago
    There is sufficient evidence to believe that the CCP held a gun to their heads in order to coerce those statement. Quite possibly literally.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      I would be interested in seeing that if you happen to have it available.
    - pphysch 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 3y ago
        Please don't perpetuate flamewar on HN, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. We've had to ask you this more than once before. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - drdeca 3y ago
        P(A|B) * P(B) = P(A & B) = P(B|A) * P(A) (Under the assumption that P(B) > 0 and P(A) > 0 ): P(A|B) > P(A) iff P(A|B) * P(B) > P(A) * P(B) and so iff P(A & B) > P(A) * P(B) and therefore, by the same reasoning in the other direction, P(A|B) > P(A) iff P(B|A) > P(B) (Let A and B be “the CCP is evil” and “the CCP committed [some particular wrongdoing]”)
        pphysch 3y ago
        P(A)=1 is an axiom of mainstream Western thought.
        drdeca 3y ago
        While, uh, no, regardless, that has no bearing on my point, which is that your point claiming that [it is reasonable to treat A as evidence for B, but irrational/religious to treat B as evidence for A], is entirely wrong[1]. [1](... with the possible exception of observing something which one previously had assigned a probability of zero, but, this ideally should only ever happen for things where one at least had a positive probability density, in which case a similar argument should still work. I didn't feel like working out all the details in the case of continuous probability distributions, as it is finicky and in any case is irrelevant to the discrete events you mentioned.)
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
I remember thinking about this recently and coming to the same conclusion[0]. If Jack Ma was supposedly disappeared and placed under arrest while also denying that he was ever placed under an official arrest then there's some background shenanigans going on by the CCP. Not to say that can't happen, just that it's not more likely than Jack Ma realizing that he poked a very vengeful bear[1] and deciding to lay low. Peng Shuai might be different (I haven't encountered information on that case recently that comes to mind) but it's fair to assume the same thing from her. Otherwise the CCP did disappear at least one of them, which, admittedly, might happen if the appropriate decision-makers were willing to put such an operation into motion. That just doesn't really seem so significantly more likely than people choosing to retreat from the spotlight. [0] Because I encountered this post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35775826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35775826 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35424678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35424678
dpratt 3y ago
"They were both temporarily excluded from the public eye, but they were not arrested." Does a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  > While both temporarily retreated from the public eye > They were both temporarily excluded from the public eye Retreated and excluded don't mean the same thing in this case.
- pphysch 3y ago
  Deliberately misquoting to change meaning isn't cool.
ipaddr 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  You can't post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html There is a large set of past explanations about why we have this rule and why it's so important. You can find many by sifting through this history, if you (or anyone) wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... On China-related topics, which particularly give rise to this sort of attack, I put this list together for a user a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod. Nothing has changed since then.

falcolas 3y ago

[flagged]

alpos 3y ago
Note that this does not apply to US citizens. US citizens, even those accused of terrorism, still retain their legal rights under US law. That is what citizenship in any country, is. Can those rights be violated? Yes, governments do bad things all the time. But that is not the same as a foreign national participating in Al-Qaeda training camps and meeting with Osama bin Laden. No nation on Earth has a strong history of giving full citizenship legal rights to foreign nationals and/or enemy combatants captured in a warzone. Hicks was also returned to Australia to be dealt with by his own government, where presumably he then did retain his legal rights as a citizen of Australia. And at that point it would indeed be a violation on part of Australia if they did not treat him as any citizen of their nation should be treated. All of that said, Guantanamo has still been a completely broken and messed up situation. We the people of the US owe it to ourselves and the rest of the world to hold our government accountable for that and not allow it to happen again. It's just if you are wanting to say that the US treatment of it's citizens has been on par with China's treatment of it's citizens, your case may be better served by finding a more direct example.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > Can those rights be violated? Yes, governments do bad things all the time. But that is not the same as a foreign national participating in Al-Qaeda training camps and meeting with Osama bin Laden. No nation on Earth has a strong history of giving full citizenship legal rights to foreign nationals and/or enemy combatants captured in a warzone. You're aware that the US actually kidnapped random people because they had the misfortune of using the wrong watch type or having the same name as an alleged terrorist, right? They didn't "capture enemy combatants in a warzone". > Note that this does not apply to US citizens. US citizens, even those accused of terrorism, still retain their legal rights under US law. That is what citizenship in any country, is. And also murdered US citizens abroad that were alleged to have ties to terrorists, without due trial.

Convolutional 3y ago

The vanishings like the sheriff who had three voter registration workers killed in Mississippi are not common, it tends to be straightforward extrajudicial executions like Fred Hampton. I wouldn't even include the car bombing of 25 year old Ronni Moffitt in 1976. The US police are killing people all the time. In January police killed an environmentalist in January, Manuel Taran. The US kills and jails political prisoners all the time.

ipaddr 3y ago
Who would be the US's Jack Ma?
- plagiarist 3y ago
  I don't believe the US could have a Jack Ma equivalent. We are more of a plutocracy than China is.
  - yafbum 3y ago
    There are about as many billionaires in China as in the US.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Plutocracy is about whether the billionaires or the politicians have the power. Not about the amount of billionaires.
      - yafbum 3y ago
        Well then the power structure in China is much much MUCH narrower at the top (1 person for life)
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    we are not a plutocracy at all, that's ridiculous. There are many places in the world where rich people hardly pay taxes. That is not at all true in the US where "the 1%" pay 40% of the income tax https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/FBIP-SOCIAL-04.jpg https://www.dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/FBIP-SOCIAL-0... if the rich controlled the government, don't you think they'd lower their taxes? or are we lucky to be ruled by the rich because they are so benevolent?

gmerc 3y ago

What about generations of people medically experimented on and left with no recourse. We discussed that

yafbum 3y ago
We're talking about the Patriot act... Not "everything that ever was wrong with the US"

6_6_6_6 3y ago

[flagged]

orangepurple 3y ago

> Who has been "vanished" in the US? See Clinton Body Count Bob Marley - needle with oncogenic viruses implanted into shoe MLK Jr. - FBI–King suicide letter Seth Rich - You should remember this one easily Stephen Paddock - his life history was deleted from databases (4chan archived lots of it before it vanished) and he was hit with a character assassination to deflect from what actually happened in Vegas (failed firearms sale to would-be murderers of the Saudi royal family staying upstairs) That's just off the top of my head. Bill Oxley claimed to do in 17 people for Uncle Sam but the "legitimate news sites" which are totally not compromised by Operation Mockingbird conveniently discredit that theory.

yafbum 3y ago
Oh yeah crazy effects of the Patriot act indeed... Edit: your post kinda proves the point. You're evidently not afraid of posting stuff online that most people would consider crazy conspiracy BS ("Bill Oxley"?). In an actually oppressive regime, that shit would have landed you in jail already...
- orangepurple 3y ago
  Add Stewart Rhodes to the list